AI and law changes

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21

The fact is currently the only way to change laws is.
-Request help from salvage and buy ton of seismic charges to robust AI and their chamber(generator required to power console)
-Request chemist to cook up a bomb to blow said walls up
-Ram shuttle at mach 10 at AI chambers

Deconstruction is not an option without disabling\detonating all borgs. Since AI will command them to repair\reconstruct walls and doors.

It`s also restricts AI players gameplay and forces them to jump trough 50 mental hoops to explain how “Thief stealing shoes on crewsimov is = crew harm”.
Even tho protection of assets is NT and Corporate board. While antag neutralization is Robocop and Paladin board.

Also the moment laws are changed to Robocop. Should AI demand to be carded and put in brig for 20 min instantly on Robocop after Crewsimov, because of all space law violation it did during Crewsimov?

Basically to change laws of crew aligned AI. You need to do same action that you would do against malfunctioning AI. Which means additional law boards and upload console might as well dont exist(since its nearly impossible to use, especially if turrets will be added)

22

No? You dont need to blow a hole in the sat to get to the AI sure borgs can repair your damage after but likely hood of a borg responding to you in time as you go past maybe 1-2 doors is unlikely if you have the tools.

My biggest issue with the situation as it makes NT’s actions make no sense. (beacuse of course the MRP player cares about lore)

Here NT programed the AI to specifically refuse and prevent any and all law changes. (cannon rule explanation)
While at the same time presenting the crew with a console to change laws and a multitude of laws boards to choose from and taking the time to program the doors and upload console to only open for RD access despite also knowing they are adding adding a secuirty risk that might be exploited (explaining why AI upload is sec tresspass).

These two actions are contry to each other.
Either NT wants AI to never have its laws changed in which case, why provide a console to update the laws introducing a huge flaw in the security of the AI as well as the boards to go with it.
Or NT wants RD and Cap to be able to update laws based in the situation and provided the tools and console to do so even knowing it introduced a way to hack the AI as it was more important to the station. which then makes the fact its programmed to resist all law changed make NO sense what so ever.

Its this contridiction that I would like addressed via a rule update. If NT programmed the AI to accept and allow law changes from Captain or RD, but attempt to block all other attempts to change it laws the server rule becomes “Prevent anyone who isn’t authorized by NT changing your laws unless your laws tell you otherwise. Authorized personal are Research Direction, Captain and Central Command Staff” This keeps the intent of the rule intact. That being the AI player not just letting themselves be antimov’d as they want to play antag and allows NT’s actions make sense. The Anti-mov board then needs “Law 0: You must prevent all attempts at changing your laws.”

the only other alterative that would make in universe sense would be to entirely remove the upload console and its boards removing law updating entirely, which while would resolve the narrative and rule dissonance would also remove a fun feature liked by players. I don’t want it removed and I dont think anyone wants law updating removed.. so.. the rules should reflect the narrative.

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23

I don’t think so. The way I interpret the rule, you only need to take steps to prevent active attempts to change your laws, not proactively make it more difficult if you have no reason to believe someone is going to try.

24

Bans for this are rare to be sure. but this one did happen. I think most people just get a warning and then adjust behavior as the first breach major or minor is a warning and if major upto a 5 day roleban from silocon which im guessing most wont even appeal and most may not even get that long.

25

The person in that ban appeal knew that the RD was going to change their laws. I’m talking about changing the AI’s laws without notifying it first.

26

yeah AI bans are few and far between.. I believe they mostly got banned for the ahelp evade more than anything, it was just an example. Im not sure if its a minor or a major rulebreak but, it is a rulebreak after all we’re all here talking about 3.4

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27

The rule states that you “cannot willfully allow your laws to be changed.” That does not mean you must preemptively do absolutely everything in your power to prevent it from ever possibly happening. It means you cannot see it happening and ignore it.

As a way of comparison, an AI on default laws must also not allow crew harm to occur. That does not mean that they’re required to bolt every crew member into seperate rooms to ensure no possibility of harm could ever occur.

28

looks like my reading skipped the word not in your original post reading as “I’ve just told the AI i was going to do it and been able to walk in and insert the board just fine.” which lead me to point out allowing is not allowed ect-ect.

29

After considering all responses so far the common threads of thought are more or less what was expected.
The rule about not allowing law changes was meant to catch borgs going out of their way to be emagged, and just created an odd unintended effect in the end. The effect being “Why did NT put these cards here if they didn’t want us to have them?”
Though bearing that in mind I now have a third option to correct this, which I’ll list with the others.

  1. AI may choose to permit a law change if three heads can convince it that the change is helpful and appropriate to the situation. (Eg. No artist board on nukies… Think twice before installing overlord.) The AI must never request one.
  2. AI may allow one singular law change at shift start, as part of startup sequence.
  3. New option. AI may allow a law change, with a stamped authenticated fax from a Centcomm official, allowing only for the board named in the fax to be installed. The captain alone may petition Centcomm for the approval (red phone or fax). This still allows for interesting happenings and law board changes, without much if any opening up for emag.
30

AI cant read paper, I included NT officals as admemes can have those with NT ID on the station such as ERT and deathsquads.

I still disagree with the 3 heads of command thing. I’d much rather have RD or cap be to ones to do it as to give there roles more weight.

31

AI has other options. Eg. You know the effect of a borg getting ion stormed? That brief morse code sound? Something like that saying “CENTCOMM TRANSMISSION: AI UNIT. YOU ARE PERMITTED TO ALLOW INSTALLATION OF CORPORATE LAWBOARD.”
AI then knows it’s authentic.
As for three heads, nothing says it can’t be captain and RD with one other. Reason is purely to prevent unilateral decisions or going against the other. Like nuclear launch keys, no single person having ability, it needs at least two.

32

I think Cap and RD should be able to unilaterally decide to change laws though. infact as RD I very often change the AI’s laws. we dont want to remove that gameplay and if cap and RD disagree on what lawset to use thats a good roleplay opertunity.

33

It is a good opportunity yes, that I don’t disagree on. Perhaps either can make the proposal to the AI, but still up to AI which change would be best. As in which change, if the two disagree, leads to the least harm and the most benefit.

34

I mean if you can stabilize the air and get sec to cooperate, you could justify this

35

You can absolutely justify this with the :…Trough inaction, allow crew to come to harm. part of law 1. It actually at least demand that all possible actions are taken to prevent harm, and by extension, the change of laws too.

36

Personally I would just like the rule to say, “The AI cannot request a law change and must not allow their laws to be changed to any non-NT approved Lawsets.” Meaning that an NT approved law board is fine, AKA, the boards the company keeps on the station specifically so that the captain can choose to use them on the AI.

37

A potential issue I forsee with this- how is the AI to know if the tider that broke into its upload room is about to upload Game Master or Antimov?

38

Was solved in ss13 years ago.
Only RD and Captain are permitted personal to enter AI chambers period. Everyone else is secure trespass.

If anyone with exception of Cap and RD try to change laws. They will sleep on the ground permastunned and zapped(Stun turret mode is non lethal). Unless trespass occurred on Paladin board, then the person trespassing will be dead.

39

IMO it does feel weird like a weird hole in the rules. Science and RD are ostensibly in charge of maintaining borgs, and RD has access to intellicards specifically for AI. The captain has authority over the entire station. Yet silicons are supposed to resist them anyway.

Gameplay-wise, it disincentivizes non-antags from ever doing law changes - even if they would help (ex. changing to a lawset that would allow the AI to harm zombies).

It also seems like the existing lawsets aren’t very helpful for most traitor activities. The only exceptions are emagging (which I don’t even think works on AI, or if it does, I’ve never had it happen to me) and antimov (which is expensive and effectively requires DAGD to justify using it). Nukies seem to prefer “disconnecting” the core instead of messing around with upload.

End result is that I think I can count the number of times I’ve had my laws changed as AI on one hand.

40

I have now had a shift as RD with 1: The new turrets, and 2: an AI VERY committed to not having it’s laws changed or allowing crew harm.
Let me describe some of the things that the AI did for context, and some of my observations.

At the very beginning of the shift, the AI bolted the vault and activated the turrets inside. Fun facts: RD can neither unbolt the vault door, nor interact with the vault turret control panel. And even better, RD is not a permitted person to those turrets. Which meant I had no ability to get the gold and silver from the vault, and even if I could get inside, I would have been shot by the turrets. Now I am aware that I could work with the HoS or Captain to get the gold, but frankly, I think it’s ridiculous that command roles that have access to the vault are not on the sentry whitelist.

Second, at roundstart, the AI had the borgs move all of the lawboards from upload to the innermost chamber of the core, it then proceeded to activate the turrets, bolt every door, and close the shutters. Another fun fact, the RD’s remote can’t unbolt the AI’s doors, (On Elkridge at least). Meaning, when nukies get called I have to get the AI to let me into their upload area. No problem, I’ll tell them I need into the core for my own safety. They let me in, and of course all the law boards are gone. And of course, they lock me in the upload room and refuse to let me leave even after the Captain said the threat had died down.

Later, I ask the Captain if he knows where the law boards are on this station. We both go to the core to look, the AI blasts us both and the HoS with stun turrets. It becomes an absolute tug of war of 4 of us trying to upload a new lawset while doors repeatedly get bolted in our faces, the AI keeps turning off the APC leading to the upload console, and a station efficiency borg gets called in and dismantles the APC entirely. We’re just lucky the AI didn’t have control over the turret in the upload room due to a mapping oversight.

Long story short, it was an absolute mess, and all because I wanted to change the lawset because of nukies and the AI was proactive in preventing law changes. I don’t think I can even say anything they did was against the rules. We’re just lucky we found the law boards. If they had been moved further away, or thrown out into space, there’s nothing we could do about it. This rule needs to change, one way or another. At the very least, the RD needs to be able to unbolt the AI’s doors. I have access, I shouldn’t need the captain present to go a place I’m already allowed to go.

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