Please for the love of god don’t destroy the salvage department. Guns are not good weapons for spycraft and as far as im aware salvage cant find silenced pistols. Engineering can turn the entire station dark. Atmos has access to a fireaxe and can flood the station with plasma. Medical can make instakill death cocktails and easily mass produce enough to murderbone the station. Science can make bombs and make anoms go critical easily. Salvage has a very low skill floor and also a very low skill ceiling and is very necessary for new players exactly like you who see a gun and think “wow this is dangerous”. Its also a great way to train new players to become robust so please dont smother this game to death with shitty rules.
atmos has a fireaxe
game’s over lads
2 hours ago, f0x said:
Please for the love of god don’t destroy the salvage department. Guns are not good weapons for spycraft and as far as im aware salvage cant find silenced pistols. Engineering can turn the entire station dark. Atmos has access to a fireaxe and can flood the station with plasma. Medical can make instakill death cocktails and easily mass produce enough to murderbone the station. Science can make bombs and make anoms go critical easily. Salvage has a very low skill floor and also a very low skill ceiling and is very necessary for new players exactly like you who see a gun and think “wow this is dangerous”. Its also a great way to train new players to become robust so please dont smother this game to death with shitty rules.
Also salvage isnt supposed to own guns at all beyond protos without permission so them owning smgs is a failure of security not a failure fundamental to game mechanics. Nothing is stopping anyone from emagging cargo and getting a smg crate besides cargo employees.
2 hours ago, f0x said:
very necessary for new players exactly like you
If you want to be taken seriously, I recommend you change your attitude about approaching an argument.
11 minutes ago, f0x said:
them owning smgs is a failure of security not a failure fundamental to game mechanics
Especially when the very next post you make is as ignorant as this. There’s no cameras on shuttles, cargo can dock a supply shuttle directly onto their salvage shuttle. Not even worth going into all the lack of viability of keeping track of what cargo is doing, from outside the cargo department, while also doing anything else as security.
7 minutes ago, Changeling said:
Especially when the very next post you make is as ignorant as this. There’s no cameras on shuttles, cargo can dock a supply shuttle directly onto their salvage shuttle. Not even worth going into all the lack of viability of keeping track of what cargo is doing, from outside the cargo department, while also doing anything else as security.
Security doesnt need to micromanage cargo, they just need to listen or listen to comms. On the servers I play everyone calls out any gunshots or explosions they hear near them, even firing a proto on the station gets salvage a unwelcome visit from sec.
ordering equipment should require the appropriate access anyway so you dont have rogue cargo techies ordering 20 smg crates then cracking them open, should at least require emagging the request console
3 minutes ago, deltanedas said:
ordering equipment should require the appropriate access anyway so you dont have rogue cargo techies ordering 20 smg crates then cracking them open, should at least require emagging the request console
I like the idea of nonantags being able to commit crimes without antag gear as that gives security more, less critical, work to do and on a metagaming level makes sure sec can’t know if someone is 100% a syndicate or not for having a pistol on them or whatever. If that does get implemented I hope its at least hackable via wires but wizard den’s devs really hate graytiders and keep making graytiding harder. I worry about the day those updates get pushed to the servers I play.
4 hours ago, f0x said:
Also salvage isnt supposed to own guns at all beyond protos without permission so them owning smgs is a failure of security not a failure fundamental to game mechanics.
>be me, detective
>want to check up on salvage to see if they have anything illegal
>walk up to cargo desk, can see guns out on the salvage porch
>ask salvage tech to let me in so I can confiscate the guns
>“lol no”
>salvage tech walks away and grabs all the guns to spite me
Salvage absolutely needs a rework because right now they have effectively no oversight or feasible way to police them and access to a supply of weaponry that rivals nukie loadouts.
26 minutes ago, goodwheatley said:
>be me, detective
>want to check up on salvage to see if they have anything illegal
>walk up to cargo desk, can see guns out on the salvage porch
>ask salvage tech to let me in so I can confiscate the guns
>“lol no”
>salvage tech walks away and grabs all the guns to spite me
Salvage absolutely needs a rework because right now they have effectively no oversight or feasible way to police them and access to a supply of weaponry that rivals nukie loadouts.
Tell the rest of sec, raid them with nonlethals, if they fire back ahelp them for self antagging. simple.
In a game where all the lethal weapons are locked in one of the most secure areas of the station, and requires not only warden/hos access to enter, but also verbal confirmation to get a gun out of there. I find it out of place that all cargo has to do to get lethals is push a few buttons.
Security has to jump through hoops to get lethals. They need to ask for permission, they need their superior to hand it out to them, and they usually need it to be a red alert emergency for this to happen. Compare this to cargo. Anyone on cargo can push a button and get lethals with no oversight.
Making a change where cargo has to request permission for other department goods(or at least security) would drive communication between departments, give the QM something to do in command chat, and would give cargo the oversight and regulations that other departments need to follow.
4 hours ago, Kayek said:
In a game where all the lethal weapons are locked in one of the most secure areas of the station, and requires not only warden/hos access to enter, but also verbal confirmation to get a gun out of there. I find it out of place that all cargo has to do to get lethals is push a few buttons.
Security has to jump through hoops to get lethals. They need to ask for permission, they need their superior to hand it out to them, and they usually need it to be a red alert emergency for this to happen. Compare this to cargo. Anyone on cargo can push a button and get lethals with no oversight.
Making a change where cargo has to request permission for other department goods(or at least security) would drive communication between departments, give the QM something to do in command chat, and would give cargo the oversight and regulations that other departments need to follow.
Sec is over regulated because they are all powerful and only have to get permission internally from their own heads to do anything they want and at the most extremes need captain permission. Cargo is a lot like hop in the sense they have a lot of power and its unlikely people will find out if they abuse it, but it is still against ic rules if they abuse it. A lot of departments can heavily abuse their positions of power and its always been the job of sec to keep them in line, its why sec is all powerful and can’t roll antag.
On 6/13/2023 at 6:24 PM, f0x said:
Sec is over regulated because they are all powerful and only have to get permission internally from their own heads to do anything they want and at the most extremes need captain permission. Cargo is a lot like hop in the sense they have a lot of power and its unlikely people will find out if they abuse it, but it is still against ic rules if they abuse it. A lot of departments can heavily abuse their positions of power and its always been the job of sec to keep them in line, its why sec is all powerful and can’t roll antag.
If cargo and salvage are both able to easily obtain guns by abusing their power, that’s a sign that there’s a design issue. Yes, other departments can abuse their power as antags, but no other department can start printing guns.
3 hours ago, goodwheatley said:
If cargo and salvage are both able to easily obtain guns by abusing their power, that’s a sign that there’s a design issue. Yes, other departments can abuse their power as antags, but no other department can start printing guns.
Have you tried using a gun to kill someone? You’ll get lynched by everyone in a 10 mile radius and even if you kill your target guess whos getting cloned and whos not?
I have paid a bit more attention to what kind of behaviors they show and what kind of gear salvage seems to have whenever I was near and around their department.
Here’s what I saw during nearly every shift:
- Not just a higher quality of lethal weaponry than what security gets at their armory, but straight up also greater quantities of firearms. This worsens as the shift goes on.
- During some shifts I have seen salvage bros walk around with weapons that you’d only be able to get by being part of the ERT or by looting the Central Command armory, in case of the latter the round would be over at that point anyways.
- Absolutely disrespectful and shitty attitude towards security, to the point where security seems to just go full apathetic and let them have their ridiculous arsenal. Which is understandable. To do a raid on salvage you would have to get access, get several officers, gear up, perform the raid, have to deal with potential ACTUAL ANTAGS who then blow you to smithereens … or salvage just loads all their illegal goods onto their shuttle and fucks off to the next expedition, resulting in all the effort being for nothing.
Now, what justifies all that from the side of cargo and salvage?
“bruh they fight aliens”
What, you mean alien queens that can be taken down with knives and accelerators which SALVAGE START THE SHIFT WITH because they are frankly piss weak and easily die to bleeding out?
Yeah. Rework salvage, rework expeditions or, a much easier compromise, make it so that salvagers can’t be antags anymore. And if anybody wishes to join salvage the entire responsibility is then on whoever promoted them should they turn out to be an antag.
Sometimes expedition teams do require additional firepower. Lethals straight up increase their odds of not having the whole team wipe and not make it back to the station. However, they should still get those guns in a responsible way. Request them from the armory, or have the solution be what was proposed earlier.
Im all for expedition teams using guns and actual weaponry, but they should be obtained in a more reasonable and responsible way than just ordering themselves an entire armory via the cargo shuttle.
Expeditions is in a strange place, salvage has kind always been like this but even more so with the addition of expeditions. There is just so much loot to be obtained that normally is not found anywhere else. Guns, armors, hardsuits, ext. can all be obtained via salvage or expeditions. While I do think that the salvage team should be able to keep their hard earned loot, i do see it being an issue where they defy security for trying to do their jobs and confinscate the dangerous equipment. I remember SS13 shaftminers and lavaland loot had this same issue. Except actual dangerous loot (guns, weapons) were MUCH harder to obtain. Perhaps weapons are too easily obtainable at the moment in ss14 via salvage mechanics?
On 6/8/2023 at 11:22 AM, Sosa said:
People don’t, or at least I don’t, play salvager because it’s easy syndie. Anything is easy Syndie. You can literally teleport a machine pistol into your hands and then buy over 100 bullets for it while wearing a web vest that doesn’t slow you down and soaks 70% damage - as you are high on stimulants yelling at your assist objective to loot HoP’s ID while your pet carp is munching on captain’s dead body. External access and a knife are just perks that go both ways. Rolling syndicate engineer is arguably easier because you can just toggle an APC and entrap or murder people at whim *and* you are okay in spaces you are definitely not supposed to be in just because “oh fuck the power’s off let me help” while also spawning in with engineering goggles and insulated gloves. And let me tell you - those are WAY more dangerous than a knife and a PKA. However, it doesn’t take a lot of creativity to make other roles as Syndicate work. Scientist? Mass spawn anomalies until one is in your objective’s workplace. Janitor? Wait until there’s a mess in your objective’s workplace. Passenger? I’m lost, can I come into your objective’s workplace? You can spawn in as a monkey and play a Syndicate role well given enough time and patience.
There are a few great points. I’ve long since thought access should be required when accepting, or even placing, high value orders. I, as a Cargo Technician, should not be able to order 3 crates of SMGs, 2 crates of Medical supplies and MRE’s to last me an entire nuclear Winter. Requiring access for at least *the placing of the order* for these items should not only be barred via ID, but LOGGED via ID, then literally anybody in cargo can do whatever because they’d either have needed HoS access or HoS is aware of the order having been placed.
Salvage Specialist is an extremely rewarding role because it is mechanic focused, this suits a certain niche of gameplay that is partly hermit roleplay and rewarding memorization of multiple skillsets, reaction time and cognitive abilities. We get to heal fellow new salvagers by using medical knowledge, aim true like William Tell and murder space ticks before they terrorize the station, we get to build a shuttle and fly it to derelict bits of stations or chase a Lone Operative. It provides roleplay about essentially a station-dweller that goes on dangerous external missions - a gritty character who comes back to grab smokes/a drink/a bite to eat and talk to the “locals” while still maintaining a grumpy, but not outright hostile, attitude because, well, bleeding to near-death from bear swipes and carp bites puts a chip on your shoulder. We get to defend Security from external threats every single round while simultaneously assisting the entire station via much needed materials (plastic, anyone?) funds and unobtainable valuables - microstims, exosuits, laser rifles, literal gravity generators, the usual. Nukies have not just SecOff to fear, but the inevitable influx of bloodthirsty pseudo-Cargonians banding together at the foaming mouths.
Donning a bloodred with expedition weaponry is almost suicide nowadays - blowing through armory means nothing when 3 salvagers armed with Deathsquad weaponry come rolling up in a shuttle specifically designed with open bays to throw things in/out of (shuttle parts, materials, bullets.) While I initially saw your point and felt that it might need to be retouched since the Syndicate 10TC enabling, I think you underestimate the amount of pure power that access has. Engineers, paramedics, cargo techs, salvagers, secoffs, all heads, external access is everywhere - just gotta look.
Calling something “untethered powergaming” because it’s not your playstyle is a bit of a reach, I don’t call people “shameless validhunters” for rolling Security or “wall paint drying enthusiasts” for rolling Engineer. There should be a mutual respect to how many times Salvagers have helped out with Nukies - as well as blood reds in general raiding armory, shit, almost forgot Rat Kings, zombies, fellow Syndies, back when Space Dragons existed, helping engineers with repairs… etc,etc.;
I fully agree, salvage is a very useful department, without which it would be much, much harder to obtain luxury goods, (And plastic) I also respect salvagers a lot, since their job is probably the most dangerous on the entire station, and this is coming from a security main, and believe me, we like to brag about how dangerous and difficult our job is.
holy shit security main go outside🚎
3 hours ago, deltanedas said:
holy shit security main go outside🚎
NEVER, I WILL POWERGAME EVERY SINGLE DAY, AND THERE ISN’T A THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT HAHAHAHA