SS14 2/4/2024 Appeal Ban Removal (Metagaming / self antag spree)

[Chief_Engineer]

33 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

I would imagine he was fine since he ran around in the video above and proceeded to not harm us but instead play around.

In the video you provided they don’t appear to have done anything that would have instigated the mass shoving and the moving around appears to be to try to avoid being shoved rather than them playing around.

36 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

I do understand and I believe thats why I also called for a peaceful protest as to not make us seem like such a huge hard

When you call yourself a peaceful protest, but then proceed to threaten violence and your group gibs someone, people are unlikely to interpret that as a peaceful protest, no matter how many times you say “PEACEFUL PROTEST”

31 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

In the context of “SAM MEDI RUSH” could you send more photos so I can get more depth again?

Here are your chat logs surrounding that time:

40 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

(Who then beat me without warning or pause)

There were 3 hits, none of which put you into crit, followed by a pause which was then followed by the hits that put you in crit.

45 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

Thats where I’m unsure so I’m asking if the name I pointed to if you could send me a photo of that character?

The actions I’m describing were taken by the person you pointed to. I cannot send you an image of the person’s character. In summary, a person hit you a few times with a wrench, with a pause in the middle of the series of hits, you eventually responded to this by seemingly ordering a mob to beat them and calling them a dumbass, a mob that had very recently gibbed someone. You do not appear to have attempted to contact security about the situation, instead attempting to rely on literal mob justice.

[WYATTWYATT100]

15 minutes ago, Chief_Engineer said:

In the video you provided they don’t appear to have done anything that would have instigated the mass shoving and the moving around appears to be to try to avoid being shoved rather than them playing around.

When you call yourself a peaceful protest, but then proceed to threaten violence and your group gibs someone, people are unlikely to interpret that as a peaceful protest, no matter how many times you say “PEACEFUL PROTEST”

Here are your chat logs surrounding that time:

There were 3 hits, none of which put you into crit, followed by a pause which was then followed by the hits that put you in crit.

The actions I’m describing were taken by the person you pointed to. I cannot send you an image of the person’s character. In summary, a person hit you a few times with a wrench, with a pause in the middle of the series of hits, you eventually responded to this by seemingly ordering a mob to beat them and calling them a dumbass, a mob that had very recently gibbed someone. You do not appear to have attempted to contact security about the situation, instead attempting to rely on literal mob justice.

1. In the video the sec member is just running in circles with us while we all shove him (mostly just shoving ourselves) and then we got hit by a banana peel. At any time he could of left which he did and we just chased after him trying to get his shoes and he flashbanged us that was the end of that.

2. Like I said understandable however the gibbing was called for by the captain so just about anyone would have gone to get him but I still had no part in it. The protest was still peaceful regardless and nobody was actually beaten.

3. The screenshot of me talking was me finding a Samuel after the Landon killing and I was hit by Samuels on accident so we went to rush into Med for health care and by the time we got in there, there was already pills (I forgot the exact name) but with our name on them made by the chemist. I was being force fed pills (by complete randoms) and started shaking (afraid I was going to die) so looked for a doctor who beat me (there weren’t any real pauses just actual swing cooldowns at least not enough for me to respond had I been typing or trying to exit the room) before they knocked me on the floor into as I started getting closer to crit I guess as they left me locked in a room with a janitor who saved my life.

The mob call was from pure anger that a doctor just beat me and ran out then I believe insulted or ridiculed me? But nothing was done to them and I was staying with the crowd so never got the chance to report to Sec. Besides would a sec member want to hear a Samuel as you described their possible fear? Even later when I found them and realized the person I pointed to at first might have been the wrong person I never did anything about it. It was pointless and knew it would cause problems so we moved on

[Chief_Engineer]

52 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

The protest was still peaceful regardless and nobody was actually beaten.

It’s difficult to detach the protest from the gibbing that happened during it, especially when the gibbing was done by the protesters and happened within a minute of a threat to make the protest violent. I understand that there may have been external factors that contributed to the person being gibbed, but for an outside observer it would be perfectly reasonable and accurate to describe the situation as “there was a protest during which someone was gibbed by the protesters.”

58 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

there weren’t any real pauses just actual swing cooldowns at least not enough for me to respond had I been typing or trying to exit the room

There was enough pause for you to send 2 chat messages, there was certainly enough time for you to have sent one less and try to leave instead.

1 hour ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

But nothing was done to them

The fact that others chose to not follow your commands is more reflective of them than of you.

1 hour ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

I was staying with the crowd so never got the chance to report to Sec

All crew have access to radios which they can use to talk to everyone on the station.

1 hour ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

Besides would a sec member want to hear a Samuel as you described their possible fear?

Perhaps not, but not only is this a problem of your own creation, it’s a problem that you aren’t certain existed because you never tried to talk to security, and a problem that no non-antag should be worried that they’ve created for themselves, let alone a large group of them.

[WYATTWYATT100]

1 hour ago, Chief_Engineer said:

It’s difficult to detach the protest from the gibbing that happened during it, especially when the gibbing was done by the protesters and happened within a minute of a threat to make the protest violent. I understand that there may have been external factors that contributed to the person being gibbed, but for an outside observer it would be perfectly reasonable and accurate to describe the situation as “there was a protest during which someone was gibbed by the protesters.”

There was enough pause for you to send 2 chat messages, there was certainly enough time for you to have sent one less and try to leave instead.

The fact that others chose to not follow your commands is more reflective of them than of you.

All crew have access to radios which they can use to talk to everyone on the station.

Perhaps not, but not only is this a problem of your own creation, it’s a problem that you aren’t certain existed because you never tried to talk to security, and a problem that no non-antag should be worried that they’ve created for themselves, let alone a large group of them.

1. Wouldn’t it be described though as captains orders? I think anyone but us would have done the same.

2. I believe I was actually stuck inside a room, either or it seemed a lot faster to me and im already over it

3. Everyone was shouting orders all throughout its just we realized maybe killing someone who hit me isn’t worth it? I’ve had that happen multiple times so I chose to not care later

4. Radio or not even in instances I have reported to sec such as somebody getting kidnapped ive reported within minutes and they sat around and actually did nothing then when the body was finally found much later (welded in a locker) they were dead.

5. It’s not a problem I’m worried about but more of a fact that with 8 people trying to walk around they would want nothing to do with it just like in 4. where when I was alone even and reported it nothing was done.

Note: I don’t mean to come off as hostile I’d just like to help get to the bottom of this and solve / learn what is and isn’t going to fly after this incident. Are there any other concerns?

[Chief_Engineer]

13 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

Wouldn’t it be described though as captains orders? I think anyone but us would have done the same.

No, the captain never told you to gib anyone, they told you to kill them. Even then, while that may have been interpreted as an order and while it was from the captain, IC actions don’t justify breaking server rules. A reckless captain is not justification for the crew to be reckless. Here is what the captain was saying as Landon was continuing to be beaten while dead:

24 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

just we realized maybe killing someone who hit me isn’t worth it?

The other members of your group may have realized this but you took actions that appeared to be in furtherance of that goal by telling them to beat the person. You certainly would have created a worse situation for yourself had you attacked the person yourself, but the fact that the members of your group ignored your instruction is irrelevant to the fact that you gave the instruction.

26 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

Radio or not even in instances I have reported to sec such as somebody getting kidnapped ive reported within minutes and they sat around and actually did nothing then when the body was finally found much later (welded in a locker) they were dead.

You cannot metagrudge an entire department because you’ve experienced issues with them in the past. If you want to be able to use the excuse that security doesn’t do anything in response to a situation you need to have given them the opportunity, and in this case you did not.

30 minutes ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

Are there any other concerns?

There are many concerns, but most of them have been brought up already. Currently the goal is to allow you the opportunity to provide any missing context and to help you understand any issues you’re missing with related actions. You’ll likely be provided a list of the most serious issues in the closing message of this appeal, regardless of if it is accepted or not.

[WYATTWYATT100]

10 hours ago, Chief_Engineer said:

No, the captain never told you to gib anyone, they told you to kill them. Even then, while that may have been interpreted as an order and while it was from the captain, IC actions don’t justify breaking server rules. A reckless captain is not justification for the crew to be reckless. Here is what the captain was saying as Landon was continuing to be beaten while dead:

The other members of your group may have realized this but you took actions that appeared to be in furtherance of that goal by telling them to beat the person. You certainly would have created a worse situation for yourself had you attacked the person yourself, but the fact that the members of your group ignored your instruction is irrelevant to the fact that you gave the instruction.

You cannot metagrudge an entire department because you’ve experienced issues with them in the past. If you want to be able to use the excuse that security doesn’t do anything in response to a situation you need to have given them the opportunity, and in this case you did not.

There are many concerns, but most of them have been brought up already. Currently the goal is to allow you the opportunity to provide any missing context and to help you understand any issues you’re missing with related actions. You’ll likely be provided a list of the most serious issues in the closing message of this appeal, regardless of if it is accepted or not.

1. I dont believe I said, “captain said to gib.” just to kill and besides that point I never laid a hand on him.

2. In the future I’ll try to report it unlike this time but should I do if nothing is still done about it?

3. Alright understood, is there anything else I can help with?

[Chief_Engineer]

8 hours ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

I dont believe I said, “captain said to gib.” just to kill and besides that point I never laid a hand on him.

  From your response here

21 hours ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

the gibbing was called for by the captain

I’m aware you personally did not hit the person who was gibbed.

8 hours ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

In the future I’ll try to report it unlike this time but should I do if nothing is still done about it?

If you report something to security and nothing is done about it you can follow escalation rules. Security’s job is to ensure the safety of station, them not doing their job doesn’t empower any crewmember to act as security, nor to enact mob justice. This is especially true when whether or not security is doing their job is determined by one or a few crewmembers who likely don’t have the full picture. Crew are allowed to act in defense of others or the station in response to things like nukies or certain syndicate activities, but I see no way to equate the situation you’ve described to one of those.

It’s extremely difficult to give you advice for how you could have acted in this situation had you reported the incident to security because by involving yourself in the mob you’ve created the potential that any force you use against someone could reasonably be believed to result in them being gibbed. Certainly the exact same scenario would have been less problematic had you contacted security first and had they done nothing, but it would not have been without issue.

As a reminder to everyone, your only options for resolving a conflict are not limited to ignoring it, getting sec to do something, or using physical force. You are allowed to bring concerns to heads and solve issues with diplomacy. The CMO doesn’t want doctors or chemists beating people for no reason, the HOS doesn’t want security to not be doing their job, the HOP’s job is not just denying AA requests from the mime but also to be a general advocate and mediator for the crew, and the captain doesn’t want departments falling apart there are fights happening and the crew doesn’t think security is doing anything about them. As a bonus, bringing complaints to heads is generally completely safe from a rule perspective, harassing a head or someone with complaints might be an issue if your complaints are in bad faith might be an issue, but I can’t imagine a situation where a good faith complaint that doesn’t come with a threat of violence or disruption could be considered over escalation or self-antagging.

8 hours ago, WYATTWYATT100 said:

Alright understood, is there anything else I can help with?

I don’t think so but you’re free to provide additional context or clarifications while this appeal is open.

[WYATTWYATT100]

1 hour ago, Chief_Engineer said:

  From your response here

I’m aware you personally did not hit the person who was gibbed.

If you report something to security and nothing is done about it you can follow escalation rules. Security’s job is to ensure the safety of station, them not doing their job doesn’t empower any crewmember to act as security, nor to enact mob justice. This is especially true when whether or not security is doing their job is determined by one or a few crewmembers who likely don’t have the full picture. Crew are allowed to act in defense of others or the station in response to things like nukies or certain syndicate activities, but I see no way to equate the situation you’ve described to one of those.

It’s extremely difficult to give you advice for how you could have acted in this situation had you reported the incident to security because by involving yourself in the mob you’ve created the potential that any force you use against someone could reasonably be believed to result in them being gibbed. Certainly the exact same scenario would have been less problematic had you contacted security first and had they done nothing, but it would not have been without issue.

As a reminder to everyone, your only options for resolving a conflict are not limited to ignoring it, getting sec to do something, or using physical force. You are allowed to bring concerns to heads and solve issues with diplomacy. The CMO doesn’t want doctors or chemists beating people for no reason, the HOS doesn’t want security to not be doing their job, the HOP’s job is not just denying AA requests from the mime but also to be a general advocate and mediator for the crew, and the captain doesn’t want departments falling apart there are fights happening and the crew doesn’t think security is doing anything about them. As a bonus, bringing complaints to heads is generally completely safe from a rule perspective, harassing a head or someone with complaints might be an issue if your complaints are in bad faith might be an issue, but I can’t imagine a situation where a good faith complaint that doesn’t come with a threat of violence or disruption could be considered over escalation or self-antagging.

I don’t think so but you’re free to provide additional context or clarifications while this appeal is open.

1. Sorry I didnt mean to say captain said Gib must not have been thinking

2. I think thats all I have to share so thank you.

[lonesoldier55]

There are five appeals open across five different users for the same offense. To save everyone some time, I am going to copy/paste this response which will contain dispositions for each player involved in this. These dispositions represent the consensus of the entire administration team, not just myself.

The Issue

A large group of individuals pre-planned an appearance and naming scheme to facilitate identifying one another in-game. This identification of one another was used to form a mob and act as a cohesive unit to which other players had little hope of doing anything against due to the number of players involved. This is metagaming (using outside information, who those other players actually are, to your advantage). This mob of individuals engaged in a large amount of disruptive activity generally taking the form of a protest or riot (saying “peaceful riot” doesn’t change the fact you are calling for a riot, which would fall into “calling for strikes, revolutions, cults, etc.”).

Regardless of if the metacommunication was done during the round or done before the round to pre-plan this does not matter, we still see it as metacommunication and it was clearly abused to the detriment of other players not involved in it. 

The Verdicts

Rodriguez_Hasselhoff - As this is your second appeal ban, you will remain appeal banned and require a voucher of good behavior from another SS13/SS14 server to appeal. You may only provide that voucher and an appeal after six months from now (Aug 11, 2023).

Wulfeee - You, alongside Rodriguez, appear to be the primary instigators or organizers of this. It seems clear to us from a discord screenshot provided by randy10122 that you intended to bend the rules to your advantage to facilitate the metamob without using the textbook definition of metacommunications. You also were forum banned while we mysteriously had a bunch of users we had never seen before show up on Rodriguez’s first appeal. While I have undone your forum ban, you will remain appeal banned and it is highly unlikely you will successfully appeal your ban without a voucher of good behavior from another SS13/SS14 server.

WYATTWYATT100 - Your ban will be reduced to one week from now. From what I see in the logs you were clearly orchestrating a mob or riot to the detriment of the station. Multiple instances of you directing the mob or trying to instigate it to cause trouble or antagonize people. You have been cordial within the appeal, so we will step this down to only a week for now.

randy10122 - We will accept this appeal.

Monstrosity - We will accept this appeal.

elixirsoup - We will accept this appeal.

R3TR0_T4P3Z - We will accept this appeal.

 

Our banning policy dictates that the next appeal ban after the first will automatically be a voucher ban. Voucher bans require a voucher of good behavior from another SS13/SS14 server and are unappealable for six months after they have been issued. For those unbanned, if you wish to continue playing on Wizard’s Den we strongly suggest you re-read the rules and be on very good behavior.