Holy shit, spitting.
Yeah actually I kinda fuck with that.
What I enjoy most as a corpsman and evil healer is having to juggle.
Keep myself methed up, keep my team mates alive
Observe what you last saw being used to intuitively figure out what your friend needs.
And on the end of a medbay chemist, it would be amazing since thatll make uncommon stuff actually need a refill, i.e Sigy or Arith.
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I think the cellular damage idea is pretty interesting and aligns with the damagetype being âa tradeoff you consciously choose to makeâ. And in this case itâs quite apt because Medbay will be the ones who eventually have to deal with it, so itâs sort of Medbay incurring debt to themselves.
I still think the advanced chems needs a slowdown because honestly Nukies will just mix 5u omni into the jug and then be fine, but maybe it could kick the value up to 0.2u/s instead of 0.1u/s to get the best of both worlds?
We should still test the current values for a while but Iâll keep this suggestion in my back pocket.
2 Likes
Consider, if punct caused caustic and continued to work at its current speed (previous?? 0.5.), I could use the omni for it but that would cost roughlyâŚ
16-24 tc depending on jug size.
If I just drop 25 into the jug, it wouldnt heal all the caustic as the speed is the issue.
Its the same reason I dont do 30 diph, 170 meth.
The fact the damage will accrue over an extended period is the big problem.
Alternatively, I could keep the omni separate as I do now, but that is another ball for me to juggle.
That is a fucking HUGE zinger of a change imo.
It adds an entire new dimension to combat healing!
Do I go with the less optimal bicardine but I no longer have to give attention outside of the immediate fight, or do I go with punct and incur that ever so hard to heal caustic damage.
Do I surrender more bag space and time for sigy, do I cut the ratio 1/1 so I dont have to focus as hard on them in the midst of hellish combat at the cost of losing more than half my punct or do I spend more than half my TC on omni pens to make it a no worries punct mix.
Hell this doesnt even factor in tranex!
The amount of options and opinions for corpsman is absolutely gargantuan!
As for the medbay floor? Oh baby, do I give this guy the quick and easy treatment with bic or do I focus on him entirely and effectively force myself to not heal anybody else while I oversee the punct patient.
Shit if Bruiz did cold damage, I may actually have to use lepo! So many lesser used chems would gain new purpose!
If I had full and total control over what the direction of med was until newmed drops?
This is really what I would love to see, its so much more interesting than slow chems or ez pz heals.
So much strategy would be involved!
I like this idea, itâs a much better solution then the one proposed before and I can see it creating interesting interactions
so im stupid and I cant find the PR on github. can I get it linked?
This is the PR iâm referring to myself.
100% this. This was a big change, and the discussion on GitHub was stifled due to
- People being assholes and getting the discussion locked. I get it but please just ban the assholes instead of nuking the ability to discuss.
- The multiple attempts at the PR left discussion behind when subsequent PRs were made.
When a change goes through like this Iâm curious as to what the maintainers think. I want to see why they might agree or disagree.
It feels like the PR discussions on the forum have just died outright. Seen lots of seemingly controversial PRs (in terms of the responses on Github) make it through and merged with no discussion here for the people to see is concerning.
3 Likes
15u of carbon makes 10u of lacerinol, which heals 60 slash, + 15 with 5u of bic left over, and 10 inaprovaline. Having the edge over bic by 15 damage (granted itâs 15 of all brute, not just slash).
If you devote all of that carbon to making bicaridine, you can get 20u, that heals 60 total brute damage, for 15 damage less total (20% less damage, 33% less carbon efficient), and heals at 5x the speed!
Punc and bruiz get the benefit of being doubly better, but lace has been decimated.
I get that advanced brutes were Dermaline levels of complexity for Advanced Burns level of healing, but looking at the change Bicaridine had in regards to Lacerinol, does have me questioning if this was fully thought outâŚ
I propose a more complex recipe to reward mastery, of course Iâm more of the âbuff everything else instead of nerfâ line of thinking. But in a game with PVP elements this is a lot more difficult to implement this form of development.
I honestly just do not understand why they decided to do this. the game has a lot of unfinished things and a lot of content that hasnt been added yet⌠why make massive changes to systems that already very clearly work just fine for as far as I can tell no benefits?
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Like⌠fundimentally the system as it was worked and people had fun with it, I wasnt seeing anyone complaining about chems who had problems with it that this actually adresses.
Advanced healing chems are supposed to be hard and time consuming to make but make up for that with very strong effects, they were pretty perfectly balanced to give that feeling in my opinion and now theyâre just worse for⌠no reason? Why?
The foam nerf is also incredibly bizzare to me as it was just a niche cool thing that people could do that wasnt like⌠optimal or being abused at all. (Iâve heard like⌠one or two stories of nukie squads being taken down with it but if a team of deadly marauders who are all wearing hardsuits 99% of the time forget to toggle internals when they see ominous foam erupt from a thing somone threw at them thats on them.)
And foam made of a bunch of toxic reactive chemicals being ingested suddenly having no effect makes way less in-world sense and is yet another decision that takes away some of the sandbox feel that makes the game unique and interesting on top of a very worrying number changes going in that direction recently.
âits the same amount of healing just over more timeâ doesnt really help, the speed of the healing is the whole point in the first place, if you want lots of healing over a longer period topicals are pretty easy to make especially if its damage that can be healed by gauze, hells by that logic medical beds have infinite healing of most damage types over a long enough period.
Itâs all just so ood an unnecessary
Making this as a reply to my comment earlier, Iâve seen comments on Liltenâs video talking about the carbon cost for making bicaridine and its derivatives too.
Assuming we want to make 10u of any chem:
- Bicaridine alone needs 2u for 6u inaprovaline then another 5u of carbon to make bicaridine for a total of 7u. 10u of bic can evenly heal 30 brute over 20 seconds, with a healing rate of 90 brute evenly per minute.
- Bicaridine as a precursor to puncturase or bruizine needs half of that, rounding up requiring 4u of bicaridine. 10u of punc or bruiz can heal 60 blunt over 100 seconds, with a healing rate of 36 blunt or pierce only per minute.
- Bicaridine as a precursor to lacerinol not only has the bicaridine cost of 4u carbon, but the cost of making the benzene which in this case rounded up would be 5u to make 5u of benzene for a total of 9u, making it even more inefficient material wise than bicaridine, let alone punc or bruiz. It also shares the same healing rate.
If material cost was also a factor, this scales weirdly - bic being a middle ground between bruiz and punc for cheapest and lace for expensive. But the healing and the timeframe also make no sense - the specialized chems heal twice that amount⌠and take five times longer?
Assuming 200u of carbon is available, your options for making each chem, their full amount of healing and how quickly it would be used up are the following:
- Bicaridine - 50u into making 150u of inaprov then 150u carbon into making 300u of bicaridine. Thatâs 600 ticks of healing 1.5 brute evenly, leading to a total of 900 of any brute damage being healed. This would heal 900 brute damage in about 10 minutes, using the rate from earlier.
- Puncturase or bruizine - We have that same 300u of bicaridine now being used to make 600u of either chemical. Thatâs 6000 ticks of 0.6 of either pierce or brute being healed, to a total of 3600. But that healing is going on far more slowly - if you wanted to heal a theoretical 900 pierce or blunt, thatâs going to take 25 minutes and it will only heal pierce or blunt.
- Lacerinol - itâs even worse: if I did my maths right, youâd need 80u carbon to make 120u bicaridine and 120u carbon to make benzene, giving you 240u of lacerinol. You now have 2400 ticks of 0.6 slash healing, for a total of 1440 slash. A theoretical 900 slash would still take 25 minutes like bruiz or punc.
If we scale down the amount of healing it would do from 25 minutes to 10 minutes, the specialty brute chems only heal around 360 in 10 minutes but in exchange you can get larger quantities compared to bic which does make them more resource efficient in cases of injured but not critical people.
Lace maths for anyone interested in how I got those numbers
- 3u inaprov needs 1u carbon
- 2u bicaridine needs 1u inaprov and 1 carbon for a total of 2 carbon
- 1u benzene needs 1u carbon
- 2u lace needs 1u benzene and 1u bicaridine
- we make the total for each of the products we need for lace equal - Iâm bad at math, so I choose 6u as my goal for bic and bez instead of 3 like a goof
- 6 bicaridine = 1u of carbon for 3u inaprov + 3u carbon = 4 carbon
- 6 benzene = 6 carbon
- extrapolate from there
Yes, itâs a bigger backstock of healing, but thatâs also not taking into account other factors - critical state, bloodloss, airloss, other sources of damage and healing.
- When youâre crit, youâre going to asphyxiate. You wonât be able to move or treat yourself, so you canât stop yourself bleeding or get an airmask on in zero-atmos environments.
- When youâre bleeding, youâre going to take bloodloss damage - and if youâve been brute damaged then 2 times out of 3 youâre definitely going to be bleeding.
- When youâre asphyxiating, youâre taking airloss - it sounds obvious, but this is happening while everything else is going on, including when youâre metabolizing these chems.
- You also have topicals that can be applied while these chems are being used and that can alleviate different negative effects these chems alone do not treat - bandages for bleeding, for example. Topicals also work regardless of whether or not youâre alive - you must be alive for chems to be metabolized.
What does all of this result in?
Letâs say someone gets beaten to crit and left alone for a minute. Theyâre bleeding, theyâre asphyxiating. I donât have exact numbers on how often or how badly blood or airloss is, but letâs assume 0.3 of each of bloodloss and airloss damage once per second to be courteous.
Para finds them and gets them back to med in 10 seconds. So they have 100 of, letâs say, blunt or slash damage, 21 bloodloss and 21 airloss for a total of 142 damage. Letâs also assume that the time spent with chems being metabolized is also being used to stop bleeding, prepare new injections, etc. as well as doctors injecting perfectly.
- If we use the specialized chems, letâs say 20u of bruiz or lace because syringes only work in differences of 5u, theyâre effectively replacing the brute damage with airloss and bloodloss(and dex+ will add even more carbon costs into the mix) over the next 3 minutes. So now we have to heal 75 airloss plus 75 bloodloss. 11u of dex+ can handle that (if medical remembers to replace the lost blood too, something I purposely omitted but only so I donât complicate the maths - you can still assume the same numbers work regardless since Dex+ treats bloodloss at nearly the same rate as airloss). The material costs are lower on the brute chem side, but now weâre using more chems for other injuries and taking up more time to treat them too.
- If we use bicaridine, weâre using 35u bic over 3 injections to heal it all over 1 minute. Now thereâs nowhere near as much airloss and bloodloss to heal because by the time weâve gotten a third injection ready theyâll be out of crit and ideally not bleeding. Probably around 30 bloodloss and airloss. Thatâs just 5u of dex+ which they can add to the final injection. The brute side needs nearly twice as much, but it took less time so it also needed less chems for other damage sources.
- If we assume an extremely sociopathic medical thatâs just trying to get people up from permanent damage, they donât even need to heal the airloss or bloodloss out of crit if theyâve also had saline injections and bleeding has stopped when using bicaridine. Using the specialized chems, you still need at least 5u of dex+,10u of epi or a medipen in order to pull them out of crit.
Because healing with the precursor is just faster, youâre not needing to use as many kinds of chemicals on the same person to get them up - bicaridine and saline as opposed to bruiz/lace, saline, dex+/epi. This keeps those chems available for others and means chemistry doesnât have to try to make 3 different chems during a crisis as opposed to 2 chems. For a seasoned chemist, itâs not an issue because they know how to make that kind of stuff quickly or have backstock. For a newbie? Thatâs life or death.
Also cryo is a thing (lol).
Time is also a resource, and it only benefits those who standing to gain from the free time it offers with people out of the picture. For sec, those 2 minutes of time spent healing could be time spent hunting nukies down or defusing the nuke. For nukies, those 2 minutes could be time spent hunting captain, depleting station numbers or arming the nuke. For traitors, those 2 minutes are being spent not doing their objectives either way (lol again). For medical, thatâs 2 minutes not being spent on the next injured, or the injured after them, or the now deceased after them - and all of a sudden medical needs to use topicals and defibs to bring them back to life and treat their injuries anyway, spending resources outside of chemistry like steel and more time charging the defibs. And all of a sudden, the dead after the first dead are now rotting and canât be revived because they werenât treated 2, 4, 6, 8+ minutes ago or - even worse - were intentionally killed or looted by traitors who had the time to find these people under the guise of âhelpingâ or to keep multiple departments busy.
Sidenote for feasible usecase
There could be a use in giving the brute specialty chems to moderately or majorly injured people who arenât crit in the form of pills in the current state of chemistry, so they can heal without occupying medbay space, but they still need to know what kind of damage they have and chemists still has to make those pills.
Bic might cost twice as much in carbon to match how much it can heal, but it heals 2.5x faster than any brute specialty medicine too. If cargo does their job properly, you should have plenty of carbon to make enough bic to make up for the lack of specialty brute chems anyway.
But most importantly in my mind, as the rework stands, a precursor medicine is able to outscale its successor purely on healing speed regardless of potential healing totals or cost. I wouldâve figured it wouldâve been the other way around myself, and most people working on chems would agree - you were putting in more effort and resources to make a chemical thatâs specialized in treating one type of damage better and faster than the precursor could, and now youâre doing it for a chemical that canât even keep up with the damage the critical state puts you in.
If maintainers want to add slow acting chems that do what the bic successors do now, I wouldâve been happy seeing them as separate chemicals. Having spent time on Goob station as of late, it could be an interesting change of pace or progression for making chems in WizDen servers.
These theoretical chems couldâve been a T1 chem by mixing the components of bicaridine with plasma like Dex+ (sugar for blunt, oxygen for punct, carbon for slash). Then we could mix those by heating them together to make bic as a T2 chem, some kind of middle ground between speed and healing potential, and T3 could be the chems weâre used to making that require chilling bic with the components they require now instead - like how you make aluite in Goob for example - filling a need for a chem that acts quickly but has a drawback like the cost, the time to make it, the method, or taking another damage type - what I mentioned previously.
3 Likes
I honestly just do not understand why they decided to do this. the game has a lot of unfinished things and a lot of content that hasnt been added yet⌠why make massive changes to systems that already very clearly work just fine for as far as I can tell no benefits?
This isnât useful feedback - your first post was good but this didnât add anything
Please stay on topic to the advanced chemical nerf
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Very nice writeup, I appreciate the time you took to really go into detail
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I honestly think this thread has been quite good for the most part. Much better feedback that Iâve seen on github posts
As the PR author who has been lurking and watching this thread since it was posted, and after watching and participating in several rounds, I do think that I swung the hammer a bit too hard on slowing chems down, basing the logic off of pyrazine which was, and still is relatively popular.
We were discussing a few things on Discord about swinging the pendulum back (microbalance spam PRs are bad, so go big, and I did).
The goal of the PR was to make getting into fights more punishing and reduce the impact of just having chems on hand that you stole from the medbay, and it worked. Healing should, with some exception, be slow (see the current trend of omnibic by nukeops as the exception).
We could improve the healing of the advanced brutes, at the cost of a more difficult to treat, but lesser impact hard to heal damage type. For example, bruizine could directly apply some poison damage per unit, punct could do caustic, ecetra. This would come with the metabolism being bumped up to something like .2 or .25 and adjust the healing from there.
The idea is that advanced meds should be super effective, but have a downside, and the basic medications should be less effective but fast.
I am not opposed to anyone else making a PR that changes the chems around further, but I believe full reversion is a bad idea.
If you dont mind me askin, among the people who were for the change, how many of were med mains?
Sure, its been effective for sec to an extent but overall the people who have suffered the most from this has been non antags.
I talked to alot of people who have played god knows how much med and all of them are perfectly fine with these chems being nerfed, but the speed was a poor choice.
The way it impacts the game as a whole to make them all as slow as pyra is something thats extremely hard to describe.
I played corpsman earlier for the first time in a long while, I am fairly sure you were there, but I ran out of bicardine.
Should I have brought punct?
On paper, the answer is yes, but you have to remember, everybody who isnt a slime or a diona can only digest two chems at once.
And those damage types ALWAYS come with bleeding for obvious reasons.
I cannot use bic punct as it would clog their blood stream for too long, if I hit them with the tranex before I use it, that would work but if somebody pushes further in while im doing that, it will just kill us both as I am now geared up to heal them and not myself.
That is what people meant by this feels poorly thought out.
It doesnt take into consideration a variety of factors, not even mentioning how Lace is just a scam now.
Pyra works because when you get heat there is no other concern, its just a number.
I like Clowns idea because it adds alot of variety to how a person could choose to heal.
Is there other solutions? I am very sure there are, but the speed 100% has to go back to 0.5, even if it does heal less.
Thanks for addressing the goal of the PR, @admiralobvious. I understand how troublesome it is to have jugs stolen from the locker, but I am afraid that this PR lacks does not benefit the masses.
When I knew the change was made into mainstream, for the first time ever playing medical, I was afraid to walk into the shift. I was afraid of the feeling of being stressed out and hopeless knowing that I canât do much to get patients out of med faster but waiting. It sucks to know that other players feel similar. Some have switched departments or stopped playing.
There is a group of medical players who spend an unhealthy amount of time on medical. I am guilty of being a part of it (lol). These âveteranâ players play (almost) exclusively medical every shift. Some even spent extra time writing chems guides. These medical lovers have their strengths and weaknesses, but their dedication to medical should be appreciated. I think what @jargn is implying is that this change should have gone through at least an active player in medical. It is always good to have feedback from extra pairs of eyes.
I hope you will take this as a learning experience. Medical players are not telling you what to do, but they hope that you will consider their opinions because they have spent 1000+ hours in a single department. It is only fair that developers lend an ear to them.
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I do try for the love of the game. :^)
Iâm honestly more surprised at the lack of ideas for helping to balance out chems in the thread too. I am glad my ideas got discussed though.
For what itâs worth, with Pyra itâs generally because people arenât usually bleeding out in addition to the fact that it heals like 10 heat a second per unit instead of the 6 the brute chems do. If I were an evil man, Iâd swap the numbers and watch the world burn as a starting point.
Dammit, now I wanna try and make a pull request for changing chems the way I mentioned in my 2nd post. Goob has spoiled me too much with the chems itâs got and the ways you make some of them. I didnât even know you could cool chems down - that does make me wonder though, do chems have a default temperature they reset to? do they radiate or absorb heat from the atmos? If not, I bet it would make chemistry a lot more interesting, trying to avoid certain chemicals overheating. Maybe the fridge could be used to preserve temps if something like that occurs.
Enough ramble though.
If the PR isnât being reverted, Iâd like to have a gander at trying my hand in balancing it out again if noone has complaints about that. Iâm starting to come up with some ideas, but Iâm at work right now so Iâll have to look into properly getting them written down and discussing it in another thread when I can I think.
Iâll say here what I said on the bad PR thread. Requests for Feedback are nice and all, but thatâs when the controversial thing has already been merged. I prefer to see the before and the after. A discussion post before merging might have uncovered some of the issues with the underlying math.
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I beg of you.
Cook.