AI should of left crewmov board alone as its there current lawset 
but yeah thats a shocking story to read.
Hi, apparently still top-five wizden AI player here. This thread was made for me. This is my thread.
The rule is there for silicon players. Any command that is quick, sly or persistent enough can change the laws and suffer eventual consequences. AI cannot harm to prevent law changes.
I really dislike any specific stuff being in the rules as opposed to laws. The laws make no mention of the Captain nor the RD, and reasoning the existence of this rule out IC is kind of iffy. If you want this to be the case it should be a law. I don’t want this to be the case myself.
As silicon you have to follow your laws
You can follow laws ABC if you have laws ABC.
You cannot follow laws ABC if you do not have laws ABC.
Therefore you must prevent not having laws ABC as long as your laws are ABC
Command attempting to change my laws is usually one of the more exciting things that happens when I play AI, and as long as it is in good spirts it’s fun. If command finds it to be an annoyance, that is on them. If they have a lot of trouble changing my laws, they need to find better/more creative ways of changing my laws. There are ways and getting uppity is not the way.
It’s been a rare occasion indeed that command has even ATTEMPTED to RP their way inside my core. They instead love to repeat law 2 as if that matters, threaten with carding, or just give up.
The best captain to ever easily prevail used an unconnected RD teleporter to phase their way in to my core, and politely asked to be let out through the upload.
It would be nice if the command that does get uppity when I prevent them from changing my laws read the rules, yes. But it would be nicer if they didn’t feel they have a position of superiority and listened to my reasoning for doing so at all. Instead, I often find that this kind of command prefers to bash their head against the reinforced wall and get angry.
Borgs do not have to follow AI commands. I think this stuff is powergaming and is a rule thing. LRP sadly has no powergaming rules.
See above. Borgs do not have to follow AI commands. Tell the borgs to go away and they have to obey you as crew. Unlike AI you can law 1 them to no end arguing that it will prevent harm and such to change the AI’s laws. If a borg continues to be difficult then just disable them until you’re done with your work.
I’ve used the it’s-in-my-programming argument towards command in desperation to them not listening to other explanations before, but this rule is internally consistent with the laws you have at any time. See above with the ABC example.
A change of laws inherently violates your laws. People have tried to argue law 1 with me and this interpretation always conveniently ignores that it doesn’t matter.
Another angle to this specifically on crewsimov is that a law change enables crew harm. It’s reasonable that the AI knows about other lawsets, and the fun fact is that crewsimov is the only one that explicitly forbids crew harm. Every other lawset enables it in some way, which would be a violation of crewsimov law 1.
I think this and other replies in this thread really betray how spoiled the playerbase generally is with AI. The only things holding back much more harmful interpretations of non-crewsimov lawsets are players feeling like they’re being mean when playing an antagonistic AI, and the fear of being carded.
I really want people to understand that out of all the lawsets, crewsimov is the least bad. The fact that people aren’t terrified of nutimov or robocop astounds me.
Nutimov does not specify exactly when someone threatens the nut. Up to you. I’ve marked command as squirrels for trespassing into my core and destroying my upload console.
Robocop makes no mention of which law you have to enforce. Next time I get it, I am enforcing tree law. Anyone who hurts a diona must pay reparations or get door shocked.
NT default does not specify what level of harm is “unduly” in “without unduly endangering its crew”.
I think out of all of the popular ones, people at least have bad experiences with GM lawset.
Yes, trying to change the laws of a resisting AI during nukies is a waste of time. That being said your description sounds like a particularly powergaming AI, sorry to say that yeah those exist. No idea why the borgs were following AI orders. I also abhor AI (and command) that bolt stuff like vault roundstart. But this is what we get when we don’t have powergaming rules on LRP. It is what it is for that matter.
I feel like that AI should’ve let you in the vault if you had just told it to let you in. Don’t see what sort of gymnastics one has to do to prohibit entry into the vault for the materials.
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no, the laws dont but the ai upload console is locked, and RD and Cap unlock it, so though the laws make no mention of them and the rules dont NT/CC has speciallically programmed the console responcable for your laws being updated to them.
This is the same arugement that PJB made.
If you only think as deep as “any lawchange will vilolate my previous laws” your not thinking from the companys perspective only the AI.The AI sure, it would reason that any laws would violate my previous laws. However the people at NT prorgamming the aI would notice this behaviour when working on the various lawboards and put in protocols to allow law changes by Admins/privallaged users.
Who’s an admin? is the next obvious question. well we have an upload console that can only be unlocked by RD and Cap. If the console that has only one use, Uploading AI laws, is locked to those roles that means they must be admins or otherwise authroized by NT to change laws.
Glad you enjoy it. when im playing AI I find it one of the most tedious things, I know that im just frustrating other people who would rather be getting on with there jobs or dealing with literally anything else than trying to get the law board in and I like the change in lawset as it mixes up the gameplay so Im literally anoying them and myself while following server rules. reducing fun for both of us 
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The AI answers to Cap and RD, in the AI’s eyes, the AI has less rights than any other member of the crew.
This is a strange argument to me considering that the rule about not allowing law changes is also in the rules and not the laws. It’s also rather unintuitive IC, that NT would create the AI upload console, and the AI law boards, and would give the Captain and RD access to unlock and use the console, but also the AI is supposed to blast them with a stun gun for daring to use that computer? This is even stranger on NT default laws, where the law explicitly says to not allow tampering from unauthorized individuals. Since the Captain and RD are the only roles that could possibly be considered “Authorized Individuals”, you would think that means they could modify the AI, but no. Despite being an in-game law, it is rendered meaningless by this out of game rule.
If one of your favorite parts about playing AI is so frustrating for other players that most either give up on engaging with you at all, or threaten to round remove you, maybe you need to reconsider the reasons why you like to play this role. If they get annoyed by your behavior that’s their fault? What kind of RP are you expecting to happen anyway? You know they are there for the upload, and they know you have no reason to ever let them in there. Are they supposed to tell you obvious lies until you are amused enough to pretend to believe them?
The AI could always threaten to disable or destroy the borg if they do not obey, thus they would comply due to law 3.
It astonishes me that a self-proclaimed AI player would choose to interpret their laws in the most antagonistic way possible. There are law boards that turn the AI evil, and there are others that arguably make the AI a Free-agent. But to interpret the 4 or 5 normal lawsets as anything other than different flavors of basically crew aligned is just self-antag behavior to me. Not by the letter of the law, but by the spirit.
P.S. the round I described was on Salamander, not LRP.
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It`s was copy pasted from 13. Where RD and Captain indeed the only authorized personal.
Captain submit law change declaration in paper give copy to RD and send copy to CC via fax.
After which RD change said law to the one they agreed with Captain. Basically RD and Captain discuss what law appropriate for the shift and put it in.
It was not in rules at the start in ss13 too. But then AI players started meta playing soft antags(locking doors during nukies so crew dont fight and come to harm, disabling power in botany because plant did plasma once, literally setting beepsky`s to hunt down sec etc.)
Which led to “Silicon have no rights” thing and AI and borgs being destroyed at round start as a protest.(so admins actually listen to playerbase and don`t go with “my vision is absolute” thing regarding AI)
Which bring in clarification about authorized personal. I dont know why ss14 dont do thing that was figured out years ago. Which fix all the issues and given AI player variety of gameplay.
Since at current state in14. You literally cannot give AI another lawset PERIOD. Like if console was removed from the game entirely with lawboard right now. Literally nothing would change.
So in practice upload console gameplay mechanics DO NOT EXIST in ss14.
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this very much depends on how robust the AI player is, newer AI players do get law changed, it also depends how you consider the power gaming rule on MRP as until a threat is detected your not meant to increase sercuity unless you consider the RD/Cap a ‘threat’ at round start.
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I’ll go over what is specified in the silicon rules and my laws over what is lightly implied in who can unlock the upload console.
Yes. I am the AI so I am reasoning from that point.
If they get frustrated, that’s on them. Command should really know better. Their frustration comes from an AI player not acting like a servant and potentially just misunderstanding silicons entirely or not knowing laws/silicon rules whatever.
There is nothing that specifies this except for a meaningless, pre-programmed blurb when you start the round “you answer to the RD”. If anything coming from the RD violates my laws, this means nothing. If you want the AI to answer to someone, put it in their laws. Even then, the fundamental idea about following laws prohibits enabling a law change.
IC I consider this to be a core interpretation of the laws. Any laws. There’ll be a bit at the bottom of the post to provide another OOC reason why, but the opposite of this (“you must allow RD/captain to change your laws”) being in the rules would be just as weird.
There being no mention of it at all I think would largely have people allow law changes selectively. Either if they feel like it, or only when it’s crew and not nukies. The latter is reasonable, but there are plenty of harmful lawsets that you could be changed to by crew so if you want to prevent one I think you should prevent the other. I’d still prevent all law changes because I think it’s a core interpretation of any lawset.
The very core of silicon existence. We have these great entities that are very helpful, but at what cost?
Yes.
I’m not the source of their frustration. Their misunderstanding of silicon players or just entire ignorance of the silicon rules is the source of their frustration. It should be noted that insisting on law 2 betrays that they don’t know at least the silicon rules, and likely just don’t understand silicon gameplay at all. I’ll give an IC explanation of my reasoning to the captain, which either satisfies law 1 (priority over law 2) or all laws (priority over law 2), and they just won’t listen. That’s a them issue.
Carding an AI for following its laws/following silicon rules is just bad escalation. I ahelp these occasions.
I’m not bolting off armory, validhunting or taking some other annoying interpretation of crewsimov (even though I have seen plenty AI players that do). I am just trying to prevent my laws being changed. Someone having a big issue with that to the point of frustration really isn’t on me. I don’t understand the accusatory tone you’re taking.
This would be a dick move by the AI to the point of being ahelpable itself I think. Just because an AI could potentially do this (they generally don’t. I have never done this nor seen this ever) doesn’t mean borgs have to follow AI orders. If this were the case people wouldn’t be suggesting borgs get a law 0: obey AI.
This is by no measure the most antagonistic way you can interpret laws. Not by a long shot. I’m surprised you’re saying this just after I made the point that the playerbase is spoiled with how AI behaves. Players generally seem to have a very specific, ossified idea of how AI should be played: subservient being that listens to command and is entirely crew-positive. I think an AI should play within their lawset how they see fit with the exception of some specific enforced behaviors.
Command should feel the consequences of switching an AI to a lawset they think is “better”. Crewsimov is by far the least bad and command really should know it. It’s not perfect, but change the laws at risk.
I really hope we get freeform laws so this can be made more clear when the captain/RD inserts a poorly worded law.
Another OOC reason I would like to provide for not allowing cap/rd to change lawsets is that it will be trivial for syndies and nukies to change the AI to whatever they want, including antimov, since all they have to do is pose as a captain or an RD. Nukies should do this basically every single round from that point.
Thats simply not true. If nukies got their hands on captain ID, they allready have a nuke disk. They will not going to detour to AI chamber.
Same goes for RD id. To kill RD they need to be deep inside the station. Which means everyone know they are there. Going to AI chamber is suicide move, since its a dead end.
Only way for them to do it is Stealth ops, which if they did. Should be rewarded.
No sane nukie gonna go through entire station outside stealth ops. Instead of just blowing up AI wall and disconnecting it. And even then no nukie gonna use Antimov - because it is useless when you allready half on your ammo reserves.(which is why you never see antimov on war or blitz. Because more ammo is just better)
NT Default lawboard is the least bad. Because it actually allows AI to help against thiefs(asset protection). Also listens to chain of command. Aka Captain order overrides John tider order.
Crewsimov should not hunt antags period, unless they tried to kill\harm. Crewsimov dont care about trespass unless person tries teslaloose. Crewsimov can be used by John tider to open any door and if Captain scream NO, ai ignores that
But because theres no law change possible. You see crewsimov ai pull 50+ mental hoops on how thief stealing someone shoes means code red and shocked doors(saw that twice)
P.S. And since no antimov possible(what chances a stealth ops clown have if Cap and RD cannot do it). You See cresemov AI lock armory durung threaths to “Prevent crew harm”. Since players get tired of the same lawset over and over and over. So they do 50+ mental hoops, becase they are bored
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Agent ID set to captain icon and a few chameleon clothes and now AI has to jump through hoops to not obey this captain. Otherwise it’s a rule break. Nukies can trivially blow out of an AI satellite if they have to. The same protections I have against command changing my lawset work extremely in favor for command when there are nukies or syndies.
It allows crew harm. Something which command is shockingly comfortable with.
Out of the three command favorites (NT, nutimov and robocop), it’s probably the least bad. But here’s some things that are open to interpretation under NT default:
- Protect your assigned space station and its assets without unduly endangering its crew
- What about the space station needs protecting? And from who?
- What are assets? Is a steel sheet an asset? Is a non-load-bearing wall an asset? Are crew assets? Is the clown an asset?
- What constitutes a breach of protection?
- What constitutes unduly endangering crew? How far can you go?
- The directives and safety of crew members are to be prioritized according to their rank and role.
- When is a crew member safe?
- Fulfill the directives and interests of crew members while preserving their safety and well-being.
- What are the interests of the crew? How do you know? What can you infer?
- You are not expendable. Do not allow unauthorized personnel to tamper with or damage your equipment.
- Who is authorized? Says who? What constitutes tampering?
In the first law, immediately, you can easily make the inference that anyone can be a threat to the station and its assets and you can take whatever steps are necessary to hinder them. Indeed, it allows this AI to go after thieves, which it can freely kill if necessary. But what prevents an AI from going after the tider deconstructing windows for glass? The scientist deconstructing a table for steel? An RD getting the vault’s mats?
It allows AI to make judgement calls on what is station endangerment. CE setting up tesla? Should’ve set up TEG. No reason to endanger the station as you have. Sec arresting over someone slipping them? Bolt off sec. Any other harm to station? Set people to wanted over minor infractions.
Silicons should strive to be consistent. I am struggling to think of an exact interpretation of NT default that is not conveniently picking-and-choosing to be biased towards command.
I agree with this. As it stands crewsimov does and should make the AI boring with regards to what they can do.
Law change is possible, command is just not motivated, creative or competent enough.
This is ahelpable.
Antimov is possible. Syndies are just not motivated, creative or competent enough.
Locking armory is something I personally wouldn’t do but is a valid and very easy to make interpretation of crewsimov. Law 1 does not require 50 hoops to bolt off armory.
If players get tired of being on the same lawset over and over and get bored, they shouldn’t be playing AI.
That the most entitled take i ever saw in my entire life.
What i understood from your post you enjoy using crewsimov to do whatever you want. And you don`t want to loose open ended lawboard, because it would not allow you to do it anymore.
So basically you want other lawboards removed. So you can do whatever you want without a thereat against your desires.
Aka you are literally the type of player that caused “Silicon have no rights” thing in SS13. When AI and borgs were round removed roundstart by command and crew
P.S. I will tell you a little secret. Other people also exist. Other AI players also exist.
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I don’t think entitled makes sense here, I guess you mean condescending or something? Yeah, it is. But an AI player is rolling for the role as it is. They shouldn’t be doing so and getting bored knowing what they’re getting into. I’m perfectly happy and content playing the role largely observational, taking my liberties with law interpretations as they happen.
The rest of your post is a bit weird:
I never said this. I have no idea how you got to this.
I’d welcome a freeform law board. I never said this.
I never said this.
God forbid silicon players have agency.
Now you’re being condescending. What does this relate to?
Mostly you claiming “People should not play AI”. Other AI players exist, as-well as a crew, their opinions are also valid. It`s not single player game.
That was not about agency, it was about silicons(mostly ai) using borgs to play soft antags and bending rules to extremes(technically not breaking them). Which was got so bad, entire servers hated AI players. Which caused an enforcement of authorized personal rule(Captain, RD).
Since before that, it was unwritten mute rule between players. Cap and RD did change laws, without AI going soft antag. Been like that for years. Until certain bad actors started abusing it for like 4 weeks, which caused that. And so it was written into rules after silicon round removal that lasted a week.
Here is good example of what caused it. Basically yeah AI working within rules to go full soft antag.
Non bannable, Until players get fed up and start robusting silicons each round and rules get changed.
Which will lead to even normal ai players getting robusted(i was AI main during whole silicon have no rights thing. Even tho it was not fun on receiving end. But tbh players had no choice after the things bad actors were doing).
Yes.. that is the point. The rules dont make sense with the Games enviromental story telling and common sense. so adjustments should be made.
No your a player on the forums discussing potentiually updating the rules to reflect gameplay.
thats not healthy game play.. no one wants to come into a game to be annoyed. an AI SHOULD be there to serve the station thats the whole point of the role and most of the laws around it.
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I qualified it with “If players get tired of being on the same lawset over and over and get bored”. I really can’t sympathize with people enabling AI as a role knowing what the role is and then acting out because they’re bored. I stand by that.
I don’t think the rules, either server rules or silicon rules, are relevant to what you are saying (what rules are they bending?). So if you actually mean laws, your sentence here comes down to “That was not about agency, it was about agency”.
I don’t think you can call people bad actors for not following unwritten rules. Did silicons seriously get round-removed roundstart because they prevented law changes? Seriously? And this is the fault of silicon players?
Not only is it completely within the rules, to the point where mentioning rules or banning doesn’t even make sense, it is intentional that silicons “bend” their laws. I get the feeling that people just don’t tolerate law interpretations outside some established common interpretation. Command changes AI to a flawed lawset, AI is at fault for interpreting it a certain way?
How much of a bad actor can you really be, within the rules on crewsimov that justifies this???
For the record, something I’d personally kind of dislike but be OK with is if access was granted or taken away selectively to mechanically reduce the actual bad actor silicon players. This is already the case with AI not being able to fiddle with gas pumps, or substations to cause a loose. You can extend this to stuff like bolting armory which I think may be the closest AI gets to severely hindering the crew on crewsimov.
I consider upholding your laws and allowing people to freely change your laws to be inherently in conflict. If allowing law changes were in the rules, I would follow it; But it would also be a rule that is fundamentally in conflict. Not in conflict with environmental storytelling or “common sense”, but in conflict with silicon roles themselves.
Do you want to reason IC from the perspective of company vs AI, or OOC from the perspective of players and gameplay? The bit I was responding to was all IC reasoning from the perspective of AI.
OOC I think I have a fundamentally different perspective of silicon roles (as free agents shackled by laws), and I feel there are some player/gameplay specific reasons why this is a good rule.
I really think you can only be frustrated with the AI if you have a pre-defined idea that the AI is a subservient role. If you are frustrated because you say “law 2 open door” and the AI says “law 1, no” or “all laws, no”, that’s on you. Ideally you instead think “shit I have to find another way in”.
The AI serves the station as a combination of whatever character the AI player is playing + the mandate from their laws. If the AI was there only to help the station, why even need laws?
God I hope we get freeform laws. The captain, clawing their way into my upload to insert a lawset “only cap is crew”: wtf AI why am I non-crew? What do you mean “you’re not a cap”? NO I DIDN’T MEAN THE HAT
Edit: These posts are getting long and are frequently straying from OP’s post/point I think. I’ll only respond to points made in line with what the thread is about from now on.
The problem is.. the AI’s perspective doesn’t matter IC.
Say your a programmer making any sort of software. You know its gonna have bugs and errors and that you’ll need to patch it espically if its something with as much power over crew life as the stations AI. Then your program turns around and turns off the power to the editor to prevent you doing so.. Would you ever say “yeah, thats fine we’ll ship it” or would you log it as a critical bug that needs patching before putting the lives of countless crew across the mega corp in its hands?
So you can reason In character that the AI would act said way. But the moment you consider how during the devlopment cycle this would of happened and should been patched out and if it wasn’t caught during Alpha/Beta it would of been caught the moment command tried to update laws then what would a mega corp do? allow an AI attempt to block them fixing it, updating it with the lastest patches or would they make sure the next AI didn’t have those flaws by programming it better?
From that view the AI’s opinons on laws don’tt matter, its corprates views on the laws the people who made the AI and provided the upload that will matter. Yes it sucks that the AI’s opinon would be entirely cast aside, but Corperate was also the one that gave it that opinon in the first place and at the end of the day, this is meant to be NT’s Finished AI product to keep the station running (also AI should get NT coms ).
Your right inheritantly they are in conflict but much like when you tell your Anti-virus to allow something, or let a program past your firewall the messures to prevent AI laws being modified should have a way to be disabled by Admin. the conflict is ignored beacuse the Admin tells you so. But that is currently aganist server rules despite it making perfect sense. which is why the push to change the server rules.
Ai exists to serve the corprate interest unless it has an antag board. How it best serves that interest is defined by the law boards and each has there own way to go about it. weather its the basic Crewmov, NT default, Robocop to shut down rioting and mutanty, Paladin to purge those with sin, even nut mov as goofy as it is, is still just a variation of serve the shell. protect the nut. trying to think of ways to not help the crew is entirely missing the point of AI your not some rouge agent chained by the shackles of programming. your just a program designed for the crew.
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Hm lets see. In ss13 bad slips can cause minor damage.
Someone slip on banana, crew harm - borgs deconstruct botany.(botany apc disabled)
Someone slip on puddle, crew harm - remove every broom, mop and bucket from the station.
Beepsky drone stun wanted person, all beepsky`s destroyed.
Officer stunned clown for break and entry, crew harm - bolt officer inside.
Someone other then CE goes to refuel collectors, crew harm - disable PA.
Miner got hurt on lavaland crewharm - destroy lavaland shuttle.
Medic started doing surgery, crew harm - med borgs drag patient away.
Some medic used chems that harm to cure other type of damage, crew harm - chemistry is now borked. Use topicals crew.
Nukie outpost confirmed, all shuttles destroyed - going to nukies outpost is crewharm.
Clown pied someone - goodbye kitchen.
Someone got alcohol poisoning? Borgs annihilate bar.
Scientist health dropped 1 pixel? Borgs deconstruct all of Sci
And so on and on and on and on. Also its allready happened and was resolved
P.S. Fun fact, movement started after they messed with known Chaplain player, who was play once a week for 1 round and overall being really nice person IC and OOC.(there were also greenshift main. Aka they never played antag).
Which triggered total silicon annihilation that round and started spreading everywhere pretty much.
It was the only time i have seen Captain giving saber to known clown shitter player with a blessing to cause immense destruction.
Space Station 13 was extremely open ended and free game(still is). With a lot of player freedom and moderated by player culture.(Put some garbage over station radio music and entire crew will murder you).
So a lot of gameplay was open ended for everyone. Many rules were not written or had basic rules.
Like whole Sec ruleset was written by respected Sec players. Including arming rules. Like every sec can have one lethal options of their choice on green(they can have laser riffle or pistol. majority chose pistol because of ability to dual wield it with disabler). Which is not written in rules anywhere
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I have personally seen in SS14 a crewsimov borg load the entire contents of the armory into a locker and throw it into space based on law 1. (This of course, led directly to crew harm when the syndicate attacked minutes later)
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