That would just be trespass, you could probably also add a few other charges for what they did after.
Well if someone broke into chem it would be tresspass. I donāt believe it requires defining as a secure area. Itās not as detrimental of a loss as armory is. And it doesnāt really hold the command relation that something like telecomms or AI does.
An exemption is a good point but the captain is afforded all access and therefore permission. If the captain somehow loses permission I believe that would be an IC issue and not a space law issue
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If people are open/accepting on tweaking and rewriting bits of space law Iād happily help. As someone who pretty much exclusively plays lawyer/HoS as some pretty well known characters I hopefully have some good points/additions.
Right now my only issue is making it compatible for both LRP and MRP. Unfortunately, the more fleshed out the law/procedure is, the less suitable it probably is for LRP. I play exclusively on Mander so I cant speak to the level of rp on the other servers however. And this is an issue that needs a much larger discussion/review in my opinion.
One of the main points Iād like to see cleared up first is the 15mins sentence and issues with officers handling sentencing. Iād personally argue that officers shouldnāt be allowed to sentence at all, but that seems unlikely to go ahead so maybe then officers are not allowed to sentence above 15 mins, and all sentences above must be handled by the warden, or HoS if warden is not available.
I also think that the whole ā15mins unless charged with a permable crimeā etcā¦ should be scrapped. It makes things sound unecessarily complicated. I think there should be more thought out times for each crime code, and no limit on the 15mins sentence rule.
I think any prisoner in jail above 15mins should be allowed to spend that time in perma for its duration unless the prisoner declines or it would be unreasonable.
Iāve got a bunch more points about a bunch more stuff but Iāll try avoid flooding the replies and Iāll start writing out some more fleshed out ideas for people to think about
To pose some more discussion
There are two points Iād like to discuss. Namely what areas are listed as āhigh securityā.
The list I copied from is SOP and it is missing some things I would consider neccesary. Namely security areas.
Itās my opinion any security area should be considered secure. Outposts, brig.
The second topic Iād like to mention is
Lawyers as a mandated tool a prisoner can use. As itās done now prisoners are only guarnteed legal council during an interogation which is a rare event.
The sentence would read better as āprisoners must be granted legal council if requested and availableā
While I do think this leads to less complex law dealings it is probably better in the long run as it is easier for admins to understand the ins and outs of space law. Itās also a tried and tested method of dealing with space law both TGstation and GoonStation feature one set of space law for all servers.
I agree that the first paragraph of sentencing is not very clear, even with my attempt at a rewrite. I think moving towards officers only being able to sentence up to 15 minutes is a good idea, but it does lead to issues when the chain of command is interrupted in security. If there is no warden or HOS available or even captain (unlikely event but could happen) and security needs to sentence a mass murderer they would only receive 15 minutes if an officer has to sentence.
I am unsure of how best to deal with this scenario. As unlikely it is without some sort of exception for security officers if certain parameters are met.
Here I do disagree, I vastly prefer crime codes being categorized into times, simply because I have seen a lot of wardens being a lot more open to lessening times or even warnings for a 1-xx crime. I think it is, yes, a simpler system but far more streamlined and leads to a lot less situations such as:
looc: hold up. gotta look up the time.
This is how itās already setup.
āA person is eligible for permanent confinement if their timed sentence would exceed 15 minutesā
Itās sort of hidden so I may move it somewhere more legible. An extended confinement listing should be added back to improve legibility.
Please please send some more thoughts. I hope to discuss and garner feedback in order to improve space law further
While I do think this leads to less complex law dealings it is probably better in the long run as it is easier for admins to understand the ins and outs of space law. Itās also a tried and tested method of dealing with space law both TGstation and GoonStation feature one set of space law for all servers.
Iām not familiar with ss13 so i cant speak for them. I donāt mind lrp and mrp having the same law, but I think there should be more for mrp, e.g like one extra wiki page for SOP, just so that it supports the higher standard of rp expected. Otherwise there is no physical difference at all between lrp and mrp, and you just have to āhopeā that mrp players will act accordingly without providing them any other means to strengthen rp.
I agree that the first paragraph of sentencing is not very clear, even with my attempt at a rewrite. I think moving towards officers only being able to sentence up to 15 minutes is a good idea, but it does lead to issues when the chain of command is interrupted in security. If there is no warden or HOS available or even captain (unlikely event but could happen) and security needs to sentence a mass murderer they would only receive 15 minutes if an officer has to sentence.
I am unsure of how best to deal with this scenario. As unlikely it is without some sort of exception for security officers if certain parameters are met.
I think an exception works well, something like āAll sentences above 15 minutes must be handled by the Warden or Head of Security. Officers may only sentence above 15 minutes if no Warden or Head of Security is availableā
Of course there is probably a lot more discussion that needs to go with this.
Here I do disagree, I vastly prefer crime codes being categorized into times, simply because I have seen a lot of wardens being a lot more open to lessening times or even warnings for a 1-xx crime. I think it is, yes, a simpler system but far more streamlined and leads to a lot less situations such as:
looc: hold up. gotta look up the time.
Iām not saying to remove crime codes, I think they are a good addition and better than what was before. However they need to be streamlined and laid out better in my opinion. Categorising into times is effective, however i think it could be written in a slightly better way than how it is. For example:
Capital crimes āshould usually lead to a death sentence or shift lasting detainmentā
It might be better to simply have a corresponding list for each category that includes all the relevant punishments, and then under the capital category all punishments are simply listed as ācapitalā. This could make it read better.
I realise whilst writing this that I am making it sound very confusing, so ill try to better describe it later, and will probably end up changing my opinion on it.
This is how itās already setup.
āA person is eligible for permanent confinement if their timed sentence would exceed 15 minutesā
Itās sort of hidden so I may move it somewhere more legible. An extended confinement listing should be added back to improve legibility.
I know it already exists, that was my fault for missing a sentence or two in my post and missing clarity.
I was going on about just tweaking and moving the section, like you said. A sentence above 15 mins means they can be charged with permanent confinement, but im talking about situations where people can be charged over 15 minutes, e.g 20, but they spend that time in the perma area. Adding the extended confinement listing would be beneficial and make it clearer.
As it stands currently, someone can only be charged over 15 minutes if they have committed a crime which would allow perma, however that charge in itself does not need to be perma.
Some additional points less related to the replies:
Upon rereading, it seems that the stacked crime example 2 on the wiki is wrong. It says:
āA suspect commits a 3-04 (Secure trespassing) and a 3-06 (manslaughter). Those crimes stack since they are not linked crimes. You could sentence for a maximum of 20 minutes, but context matters heavily, and maximum sentences should only be used for the worst offenders.ā
Whilst technically that is true; they are separate crimes with 10 minutes each to add to 20, it is also false. The maximum they can be sentenced for is 15 minutes, as they have not committed a crime worthy of perma. Both secure trespass and manslaughter are in the same category, and so 15 is the max, and would override the stacked time.
Let me know if iāve made a mistake in reading it somewhere, but currently it looks like it needs to be changed.
One final thing:
I want to consider adding a crime to law - Sedition/Treason. Thoughts?
This would probably only have to apply to mindshielded sec/command to prevent sec abusing it and charging every syndie with it.
It would be a capital crime for when a person either goes against the interests of NanoTrasen, for example negotiating with nukies as command, or when sec/command directly disobey the law and break it, acting in their own self interest. I will have to come up with a proper ālegalā definition, but it would include stuff like officers refusing to take orders from command. It would be linked to failure to comply, being the more extreme version.
Anything covered in sedition/treason would very likely be ahelpable and have OOC punishments/repurcussions, but I want to add it as a IC way to deal with anything should the situation arise, and just so that the law feels more fleshed out.
I completely agree that MRP needs something to separate other than just expectations. An SOP would do very well, BUT, that being said an SOP would be a different discussion entirely. For now space law should be adjusted to improve itās experience in both LRP and MRP
I will add this exception for now as a bandaid and invite further discussion about this. I think this is a good solution for now.
Iām not sure I understand, maybe you could create an example? I think for now the times are reasonable for non-capital crimes and capital crimes do need discussion. Especially around executions.
I will do this in order to clear things up.
And I believe this only applies to officers sentencing, but I am frankly unsure. The first paragraph of sentencing causes so much confusion and headache.
Again I think this is an issue related to the first paragraph of sentencing and a lot of things will need to be updated in order to ensure clearness. I am also planning on rewriting the examples, for the sake of clarity.
I will copy what I have said in private discussion about this to here.
I think a charge of ātreason/seditionā is a good way for command to be reprimanded for failing to follow the laws issued to them. It seems like a good way to deal with OOC issues IC.
Itās also in a lot of SS13 servers and has been shown to be useful, delta-V also features a law like this and a subset of it, with things like perjury, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power.
I think these could all be wrapped into one sedition charge. My main issue with a charge like this is there are very differing levels of sedition and the time should represent that. Something like an unlawful execution is a lot different than a HOS issuing a departmental search without approval.
I think some serious thought will be need to be put in to deal with command causing issues
Again thank you for your input. I will change and implement a lot that has been discussed here. I think it is important for community feedback on something that might affect the community
My latest version to me fixes a lot of issues. It can be found here. I will go over my changes.
- I have made multiple revisions of āSentencingā paragraph 1 as to me it causes a lot of headaches. This is a much clearer (imo) version with a lot less rules surrounding how sentencing works.
- After discussion with clone0401 I have revised how exactly warrants work and how they are approved. This leaves a bit more of a paper trail and may require more RP than before but in my opinion this is a lot more consistent and enforceable than leaving warrants undefined.
- I have cleaned up some loopholes surrounding ātreatment of prisonersā. The issue previously was how legal council was given to prisoners. Now it is specified that prisoners are to be granted legal council whenever requested and available.
- I have re-added extended confinements as its own punishment, because it seems really complicated and confusing to feature extended confinements in the permanent confinement section
- Security zones have been defined in the āHigh Security Areasā list
I am still looking for more feedback and discussion and would really appreciate some.
Thank you
All sentences above 15 minutes must be handled by the Warden or Head of Security. Officers may only sentence above 15 minutes if no Warden or Head of Security is available.
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I personally feel like this would take away game play from the warden, especially during low stress/calm moments.Iād personally make it say something along the lines of:
āSecurity officers should not be giving sentences when there is a Warden or Head of security on the station, unless given explicit permission from the Warden or Head of Securityā
this prevents security officers from just taking game-play away from the warden, while also allowing the warden to give permission of an officer if it is taking a long time (or they are in a stressful situation) -
Under Extended and Permanent confinement (potentially other places too) references the āPermanent Brigā, while under Treatment Of Prisoners, it references the āCommunal Brigā.
These are two different places, refusing to the same place on the station (perma) this should probably be fixed to either replace all references to the Communal Brig with Permanent Brig, or the reverse. -
Extended Confinement under Major Punishments doesnāt make much sense personally, it could probably be rephrased as something like:
āInmates sentenced for a time greater than 15 minutes are to be placed inside the Communal Brig during their sentence for a maximum of 45 minutesā -
Lawyers should be listed under Security Zones in the restricted area list as they start with brig access while not being apart of security (their department head of the HoP)
The rest of what i saw while looking though your list I think looks fine
I personally feel like this would take away game play from the warden
I personally agree and think any and all sentencing should be done by the warden where available. As far as Iām aware that was in the old MRP space law rules, where officers could not sentence at all.
As much as I would like to see it back to the old ways, it seems unlikely it will be approved, and this is a compromise of sorts. As an unwritten rule though all sentencing should be done by warden, and I donāt trust officers who sentence without communicating.
Lawyers should be listed under Security Zones in the restricted area list
I disagree. Yes lawyers have sec access and the doors are security brig access doors, but it is fundamentally a civilian office. The lawyer has security access but is a civilian job, and their office has no need to be considered a āsecureā place anymore than the bar or cargo.
i think youāve missunderstood what i was saying, Iām saying that lawyers should be listed as being permitted in security zones, not that the lawyerās office should be restricted. this is because in their current version, lawyers, dispite having brig access, arnt technicically permitted into security areas
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Sorry to everyone in this thread. I have been extremly busy with college starting back and work. I should be back to finish this starting today
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To be honest, reading up. The idea that HOS has to get permission from the relevant heads to search the premise seems like a pretty good RP mechanic and would actually give Sec reason to have issues with command itself. I have been yapping a lot recently about sec not ever needing to have an issue or suspect a command member as being bad(outside of them straight up ābreaking rulesā as a command member). Something in terms of that is a soft-rp alternative.
With the new spacelaw update I will update the contraband section to be more accurate to current spacelaw
To me a departmental search is an inter-departmental function. Sec and some other department are working together to find something illegal. Security does the searches while the head of the department issues permission.
I donāt mean for this to be a reason for sec to have issues with commands. Itās just a bit of red tape that ensures both parties understand why something is happening.
This is useful if security does have an issue withia certain department. Say the QM was promoted from cargo tech and was actually a syndicate. It stands to reason the QM would deny warrants of the area. The captain is able to override this.
With me adding specifics to warrants I just want to ensure there is a clear defenition of what is legal.
I have had shifts in the past where members of security believed simply issuing an arrest out on the criminal records was the same as a warrant. I disagree and believe during green alert sec should have to put some effort in for a search.
Notice
If anyone is wanting to continue discussion it may be better served at my pr here A revised Spacelaw by BRINGit34 Ā· Pull Request #31021 Ā· space-wizards/space-station-14 Ā· GitHub
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