Do you feel like the powergaming is getting excessive?

Today I had multiple shifts where fellow security officers were dumbfounded by me confiscating SMGs and enforcers from salvage specialists.

It got me thinking, why has it become so normalized for people to arm up? Shift starts, someone rushes a shotgun from maint, perhaps full riot gear and a melee weapon, perhaps just orders a crate and breaks it “because they are salvage”. It doesn’t even evoke suspicion among crew. Opposite happens and when I try to remove said armor and weapons from them I am met with opposition from both security and bystanders.

Last shift I played, I took a machete from a well known static name player. Detective went out of their way to return it immediately and kept disarming me during the attempted search. Shift prior to that, taking armory-tier guns from salvage that had zero authorization for them, same deal except now it’s an officer trying to give them back.

This has to stop, there’s a server rule that says even crafting spears is considered powergaming. Yet salvage gets a pass, maint rushers get a pass, people with 10 soaps and cuffs get a pass. It will only keep escalating until everyone is capable of robusting any antag before they even start going loud.

Salvage getting too many weapons is skill issue on QM’s part. It needs HoS/Cap approval. Personally I only approve lasers and have salvage instantly arrested if those weapons find their way out of Cargo.

There is no reason salvage needs SMG’s and Shotguns, Salvage Weapons and lasers are enough.

It really is to normalized and you will get called shitsec and harassed for confiscating the following: Insulated gloves (Only engi needs these), Welding goggles (same as insuls), any improvised weapon thats not shotgun, any of salvages weapon that they just decided to get.

On 10/11/2023 at 8:56 PM, Changeling said:

Today I had multiple shifts where fellow security officers were dumbfounded by me confiscating SMGs and enforcers from salvage specialists.

It got me thinking, why has it become so normalized for people to arm up? Shift starts, someone rushes a shotgun from maint, perhaps full riot gear and a melee weapon, perhaps just orders a crate and breaks it “because they are salvage”. It doesn’t even evoke suspicion among crew. Opposite happens and when I try to remove said armor and weapons from them I am met with opposition from both security and bystanders.

Last shift I played, I took a machete from a well known static name player. Detective went out of their way to return it immediately and kept disarming me during the attempted search. Shift prior to that, taking armory-tier guns from salvage that had zero authorization for them, same deal except now it’s an officer trying to give them back.

This has to stop, there’s a server rule that says even crafting spears is considered powergaming. Yet salvage gets a pass, maint rushers get a pass, people with 10 soaps and cuffs get a pass. It will only keep escalating until everyone is capable of robusting any antag before they even start going loud.

LRP or MRP shifts, with a good command staff usually stuff like this gets stopped by the QM if its on MRP. LPR, usually the QMs only goal is to make money with no rules so they usually just let salvage run wild, witch with the recent updates to salvage is reasonable profitable. 

In salvage’s case I dont see this as powergaming, its their job to fight stuff on expeds etc and theres nothin wrong with it. On the other hand, rushing for shotguns etc seems excessive (even though I dont always agree its powergaming, maybe cause I am a maint roamer and heavily involved in it too). If I stuble upon a machete, why shouldn’t I not take it, that said, rushing for such items is powergaming indeed. The only thing, we can’t control it that strictly, cause the line between maints roaming and powergaming is very thin. 
(Of course all of this is my subjective opinion)

fuck power gaming, all my homies hate power gaming

 

that aside; this has been an issue since forever and it is actively getting worse.

I was trying to argue against salvage’s arms race months ago and was pretty much just ignored/blasted with terrible counter arguments.

Let’s face it, salvage has always been able to do their job with PKAs and knives. You don’t need 3 dudes armed with enforcers to take down a single xeno queen or space dragon. Just git gud. Unironically.

Speaking of salvage and powergaming, I believe they rarely ACTUALLY need insuls and welding goggles to do their job, especially all of the team. Giving one pair for a designated breacher would be one thing, but there is just no way the entire team needs full engi gear.

As for weapons, the only one that is kinda useful is lasers, since it lets them hit holocarps from range, or hit monsters through windows. They absolutely don’t need SMG’s though, considering that exped dragons are way weaker than event ones. The lifesteal on the crusher axe and glaive is also kinda disgustingly good compared to the damage exped mobs do, so fighting most mobs in melee range is perfectly viable too.

pka is basically useless ever since it had firerate nerfed and dual wielding is impossible so you get terrible dps

1 hour ago, deltanedas said:

dual wielding is impossible

Guh?

Yeah, I feel like the powergaming gets a bit intoxicating sometimes. It’s gotten to the point where anytime I see someone powergaming, even as sec, I avoid them because otherwise HoS cusses me out saying it’s not a big deal.

1 minute ago, Doru991 said:

Guh?

Weapon cooldown carries to other hand

to be more specific cooldown starts when you switch hand so if you spam x and shoot it actually does nothing

Powergaming is loosely defined for a reason so there is some discretion with enforcing it. A lot of it (as you outlined) is a security/IC issue that should be addressed that way where possible. Arming up for things has been an issue as long as SS13 had begun creating crew vs enemy game modes as you inevitably will attract players that want to win engagements as often as possible and hence they beeline for equipment to that end.

Salvage (and by extension shaft miners from SS13) have a conflicting design standpoint where their job is combat-oriented and thus they get combat gear. This naturally attracts players who want to win combat (be it salvage combat or they like to come back from an expedition and blow away whatever threat manifested), in addition to naturally creating a power gap. 

There are a number of attempted fixes to this problem which SS13 has struggled with for years, the identified problem being that “Salvage/Shaft Miners are too effective at combat because their job involves combat”:

  • Make the job not about combat primarily - this tends to remove one of the few combat-oriented jobs, that content needs to be replaced with something else engaging for salvagers to do, essentially you need to redesign the department
  • Lean into making it about combat - this causes the current issues where salvagers are always armed to the teeth, in addition to traitor salvagers essentially having no need of syndicate firearms or weaponry most of the time
  • Give salvage combat equipment, but make it only barely good for combat - This essentially just gimps salvage against anything they fight while also making them seek more conventional weapons either via salvage loot or the station, the former of which leads into the problem of salvagers being armed to the teeth and the latter which is good but normalizes salvagers being armed to the teeth to do their job
  • Give salvage combat equipment, but only make it work when they’re away from the station - This is what the PKA originally was designed for in SS13 where it only did significant damage if it was used in a vacuum, but this is fairly “gamey” and bubblewrappy to do and generally feels inconsistent and bad to players when their weapon used for killing space dragons turns into a pool noodle as soon as they walk back on station.
  • Re-attach salvage as a department to Security if it is going to be combat-oriented, with the duty and restrictions playing Security entails - This is a fix that’s been batted around a bit and could work, but you’d then essentially have the “fun security job” where you blast space fish with awesome guns and the “lame security job” where you get called shitsec and relentlessly antagonized by the crew

It isn’t an easy issue to address. Personally I think salvage would benefit from not being combat oriented at all and instead move its job to its namesake - make them take apart and harvest resources from wrecks like with the magnet, but model it sort of like Hardspace Shipbreaker where they have to carefully tether and guide pieces of hull into a salvage machine which would scrap the tiles/walls/containers for raw material.