Mm79 - The reason is too long to be fitted in here, so i will post it below, right at the start of "Events leading to ban" window

[mm79]

Username: mm79

Ban reason: The reason is too long to be fitted in here, so i will post it below, right at the start of "Events leading to ban" window.
Length of ban: Indefinite
Ban Issue:
I did not do what I was banned for

Events leading to the ban

The ban reason is: “Validhunting as a non-antag, being argumentative in ahelp after being smited with KillSign for walking around with potassium bombs and water to validhunt. “Call in the bigger admin, your supervisor or something” like it’s a traffic stop. Would have been a warning, talked himself into a ban. Take it up with a supervisor.”

Events leading to ban: I was chemist. All chemicals were done, and i prepared myself chemicals bombs to defend myself, or the others if situation requires so, being that from mobs, or antagonist attacks. CMO was busy training interns, medical had low patient flow. CMO radioed in, that a person stole their stuff. I relplayed, that i will try to get on it, because i saw them recently wisiting medicinal maintanance tunnels, so i went there, looking for CMO stuff to help her out, and because all my job in medical was done.
After looking for some time, i exited tunnels through a Chapel, where i saw botanist killing a janitor. I asked botanist to explain his action, but instead of an anwser he proceed to put a minibomb under dead janitor, trying to round-remove him. I critted botanist with chemical bomb i prepared earlier, and dragged janitor body out of the blast radius, for him to be able to be returned into a round.
After some time, admin Retequizzle AHelped me, asking why i was going around and validhunting as a chemist. I anwsered, that it isn’t against the rules, as i know by now is false, but i did not at the time of AHelp. Instead of correcting my wrong belive Retequizzle proceed to put a “killmark” over my head, and making a CentCom announcment, encouraging crew to hunt me down to death, stating only “Good luck”, which i belive added A LOT to the confusion and frustration, as i didn’t even knew what i was punished for, because of Retequizzle completely fail to acnowledge my point - that i belived validhunting is not against the rules, also hugely overstepping, and escalating the situation to the point it didn’t need to be escalated.
After i asked for an other admin, in hope for a clear and straightforward anwser to my question - Emisse anwsered, stating “no valid hunting”. I red rules multiple times by then, and never even once saw a mention of a term “validhunt” there, so i asked for a clerafication, what rules did i broke.
I got anwser, that i broke general rule 2, and RP rule 13, which is “Don’t be a dick” and “Stick to your role” rules.
I belive that i did not broke rule 2, since my intention was never to worsen anyone expirience from the game, only to save that janitor from being round-removed, which could be argued is quite opposite.
I belive that i did not broke RP rule 13, since i done my job as a part of a medical - saved crew life from being certanly gibbed, by incapasitating a botanist trying to round-remove him, to protect janitor as well as my own lifes.

Then Emisse stated that:“Its not in the spirit of the game”, which i belive HUGELY subjective opinion, that could never be applied to punish someone in any shape, way or form.

After i relayed to him, that i belive i did not broke rules 2 nor 13, Emisse anwsered me with:“yea but you just ruined that dudes antag round by patrolling the halls with your cleanex bombs”.

1. Opening his statement with “Yea but” i belive he AGREED that i did not broke uppermentioned rules, now making a different point - of me worsening the botanist expirience.
2. I do belive i worsened botanist antag expirience, but only by saving his target life, which is clearly not against the rules. As a general rule 2 states:“Not everyone going to enjoy every round”. I incapasitated the botanist, using bombs i pre-made earlier for self-defence, or defence of the others - only to stop him from round-removing the janitor, or killing me as a witness to him being a sindie.
3. I was not patrolling the halls, i was minding my own buisness, which Retequizzle and Emisse completely failed to look into - never even asking why was i in chapel, immidietly jumping to conclusion that i “made bombs and was patrolling the stationg to look for someone to validhunt”.

Then i state, that i hear admin telling, that validhunting is not against the rules. That is false, the reality of situation be, couple days ago i saw an admin, writing in OOC:“Powergaming is not against the rules”, and messed up the 2 terms, but i do not belive it influence the situation at hands in any way.

Retequizzle stating:“Avenging a janitor randomly does not constitute being tangetially related to your job”, which is false. I was not avenging the janitor, my actions directly saved janitor from being round-removed by a botanist. And saving crew lifes - is directly related to job of a medical department.

Emisse stating:“Again if it happened randomly in the hall and you happened upon it thats different but patrolling the halls with bombs is too far”.
As i already stated - i was not “patrolling the halls”, i had exact reasoning to be where i was to witness the murder, which Emisse failed to look into.
Preparing makeshift weapon in case to defend myself or the others - is a powergaming, and it is not against the rules.

In conclussion, my bulletpoints:

• “Validhunting as a non-antag” - false. I did my job as a chemist, and was simply helping CMO, when i came across botanist murdering his target.
• “Being argumentative in AHelp” - half truth. I was being argumentative, but only because i belive i did nothing wrong, and Retequizzle and Emisse completely failed to look into the situation before punishing me for it, or to clearify what rules states against the validhunt. You can look into my previous AHelp interactions to see, that i can be easilly reasoned with, using rules and logic, which Retequizzle and Emisse failed to use, instead interpreting my action as “validhunt”, ignoring/not looking into all reasons why i made the bombs, or why i was in chapel.
• “walking around with potassium bombs and water to validhunt” - false. Crew preparing makeshift weapons for purpose of self-defence can not count as them preparing to validhunt, even tho crew might kill antagonist using their prepared weapons in order to defend themselfs, or the others.
• “Would have been a warning, talk himself into a ban” - false. As you can see with my previous AHelp interactions, for example latest with ScarKyo:
  I broke the rule
  ScarKyo pointed it out
  I disagreed with him
  He pointed out to the rule i broke, and proceed to quote exact line i broke
  I agreed with him, and never broke that rule again
  It is an example of AHelp interaction, when i argued with admin desission, but when met with rules and logic - agreed that i did break the rule. I was warned, and learned more about the rules, instead of being permamently banned for not immidietly agreeing with admin conclusion, being punished without a clear reason, without ever looking into my side of the story.

Reason the ban should be removed

Admins completely failing to look into my side of the story, interpreting my actions as they saw fit, failing to state exact rules i broke, immidietly punishing me without giving me a reason beside:“good luck”, escalating the situation even further, and ignoring my attempt to clear my side of the story, interpeting it as being:“Argumentive” and punishing me with a permament ban.

Alternate Accounts

[HazelHyena]

You absolutely talked yourself into a ban, you continually told the responding admins to ‘call a bigger admin, like your supervisor’ and called them too incompetent to provide a clarification.

When we talk about validhunting, part of it is that you’re abandoning your role. As chemistry, you should not be hunting for a thief in maints even if your CMO was the one who was robbed - there are players who joined security to do that.
This is what we mean by breaking Rule 13: the problem is not that you fought someone to save another’s life, it’s that you left your role, without a real need to, to go out and look for trouble.

Per the ahelp, when you were asked why you were doing this, you simply said ‘isn’t against the rules.’ Following the smite you -immediately- asked for another admin. You got another admin, they concurred, and you ramped it up into a drag-out argument from there for the next 15 minutes as they quoted the exact rules you were violating.

The rules state that the admins have the final say, and despite the argument you were inciting, they tried to talk it out with you for fifteen minutes until they had enough of your attitude. I get being frustrated over getting smited, but this ain’t it, man. You broke Core Rule 13 outright, arguably violated the spirit of Core Rule 2, and then continued to fight with the admins over Core Rule 1. And the thing is, you have like, 500 hours in this game. You should know the rules by now.

I’m lowering the duration of this ban to a week, starting today.

[mm79]

1. There is no clear definition of Validhunt in the rules, like i mentioned - not a singe mention of that term. That why this interaction were so confusing - becasue we were even meaning different things under the same term. I think it would be nice, if that term would be stated clearly in the rules, that would’ve avoiden entire situation as a whole.
2. Abandoning my role - all chemicals were done, all interns were taught by a CMO. I do not belive i abandoned my role, i done everything there is to do as my role, and took on a secondary task, untill i got more things to do, like re-filling chemicals. So i want a clearification, did i abandon my role, if i done all my role needs to do?
3. So, i’m getting to know what i was actually punished for only NOW, 4 days after the punishment. Wouldn’t it be much better, if admins told me that before executing the punishment? It is okay to be wrong, and i belive it’s admin job to help, not only punish. I was punished on the SECOND AHelp message, instead of at least explaining me what i done wrong, beside:“Validhunt”, which is term that even held different meaning for us because it was never concreted in the rules.
4. I never fought admins on rule 1, as soon as rule 1 was brought up - i immidietly agreed that i’m in the wrong here, and stood down.
5. You are right, i red the rules multiple times. But you talking about “breaking the spirit of rule 2”, and “Validhunt = abandoning you role = breaking rule 13”. I do not know what “spirit of the rule 2” is, and how can i not violate it, honestly, i just don’t understand. I never searched for thief himself, i just thought that he might stash CMO stuff somewhere in maints, since i saw him there last time, and why would he be in there? So i just wanted to take a look, since i had nothing better to do.

I want to make myself clear - i’m not trying to argue, i just ask for clearification on couple things, and suggesting how that situation could be avoided entirely by updating the rules, or admins doing things slightly differently.

[samuka]

yes, you are right, the term “valid hunting” is not in the rules, the concept of it, which is going out of your way to hunt antags as non-sec, is covered by two rules

don’t abandom your role and stick to your role

while yes, you didn’t abandoned your role if all there was to do was done, is possible you didn’t stick to your role if you left your job to hunt antags

I hope my brief explanation is sufficient

[mm79]

It is made things a little clearer, thanks.
But i did not left my job to hunt antags, i belive, i wanted to do just brief search for CMO items in medical maints, since i saw confirmed thief going in there, for no clear reason i understood, and if i found nothing - get on something else. After i conducted my brief search, found nothing, was going to go back to medical - i encountered sindie killing his target.
So, if i did not abandoned my role, was there even a reason to warn me? I get that i got 10 days ban for arguing with admins, and that is harsh, since i belive i was not the only one at fault, but i was arguing, and that undeniable.

[samuka]

going after cmo stuff if they been stolen by traitors is security’s job

[mm79]

True, you right, i got your point, thanks