What do you mean what do I mean by an annoyance? I just quoted the rule for Self-Antagonism.
You walk up to Sec (or any department for that matter but it’s normally gonna be Sec) and throw a bucket of water at the doors. Ok, I warn you for vandalism/disruption. If that’s the only time you do it, cool. You do it again? Brigged for the same crimes. It should honestly probably stop here. You decide that you are not one to be beaten by a measly SecOff, and do it again, and again, etc. This is the line, you are just antagonizing Sec because? You don’t like them? You think it’s funny? The reasoning hardly matters to me, cause you’ll be getting an ahelp and harsher brig timers regardless.
Basically if you make yourself a persistent problem to anyone whilst not being an antag, that’s self-antagonism.
You could even just be trying to be funny at the wrong time. If a Clown has a habit of lubing the front of Sec once and only once each shift, normally that’s not a big deal. However, if said Clown lubed the front of Sec while Nukies were actively shooting up the station, or a Space Dragon is rampaging through the halls, then yes, that’s self-antagonism. The clown might not have intended to be malicious, but his actions are due to the underlying circumstances. You can both consciously and sub-consciously self-antag.
To me it’s all about the mindset on both sides. As a SecOff I try to be fair with my sentences and not give max timers. I might turn a blind eye to the Tider with a cleanade (Service contraband) or justifiably ignore an Engineer with a spear if there are swarms of spiders and slimes on the station. I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt on if they were being malicious or just doing a bit of trolling. (A note on this, some people are just shitters. You can recognize a player as a shitter. Call it metagrudging if you want, but I know some players who just make it their job to fuck with Security, and with those players my patience is noticably shorter.) If I get the impression that the person on the other side’s mindset is that they are trying to be malicious then yeah I’ll be harsher. That’s the difference to me, if I feel like you’re consciously trying to be a problem. Vibes matter here.
real life comparisons have no place in this argument. You can’t even see the entire line of fire on your screen. a stray bullet can’t be fatal on its own and also can’t be healed in under 5 minutes. AND, considering thing outside of the players control such as lag and random bullet deviation, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to jail sec officers for accidentally hitting someone with a stray round. Especially if the threat that they are attempting to eliminate could have caused a LOT more damage and harm to the crew.
Thats a thing. “Could”
If its an antag that shoots back, sure. Stray can happen, no one gonna grab you on that
But if its melee combat antag or running away antag and you spray Lethals in all direction without thinking about line of fire its another thing.
If lawyer or crew-member come after that with complaint. And you didnt want to go sit 5 min in, even tho you knew you did that. I will jail you Manslaughter\Assault.
Because i already had cadets unload kramer in a center of medbay, because of single spider and HoS brushing it off. While i was going “What can i do?”
Not anymore, i will be pain in the lower back for sec department.
I will give perma prisoners coms.
I will stop Sec from fully undressing non perma prisoners and taking away their comms\PDA.(unless they had sindie stuff. Then i may take PDA for a check)
I they searched someone without reason on Green and found something. I will reduce their sentence as much as possible
It will also teach people to watch line of fire. And by observing it, they will stop themselves standin in line of fire.
Because thing i noticed. Most dangerous thing to sec offs during nukies are other secoffs. LIke nukie missed most of his shots before retreat, but more then half of secoff shot connected with each other.
Because they are used to not watching line of fire and going happy trigger hour. Same goes when secoffs rush in, NO ONE gets close to wall so person behind them can shoot too. They just press forward
Theres a fine line between negligence and collateral damage. Arresting a sec officer for this means you believe they broke space law which is an OOC issue. By setting this standard no one is going to want to play sec AND sec is going to be much less effective because of fear of getting banned over a missed shot. If you start intentionally fucking over sec, I swear to God I’m going to give granny Gertrude a fire extinguisher filled with phlog and napalm and tell her you stepped in a plasma pit. I will tell Cerberus you are a chew toy. I WILL GO FULL NUCLEAR AND TELL THE CLOWN YOU DONT THINK HIS JOKES ARE FUNNY. But on a more serious note, this level of competency can’t be expected on LRP, collateral damage is going to happen, both from negligence and not from negligence, intent matters a lot when it comes to accusing sec officers of violating space law, jailing officers who are well intentioned only makes the station less safe.
Not an excuse. Collateral damage is during shootout between sec and antag.
Not during chasing John Tider because they punched secoff and spraying people in corridor.
Spiders also dont dodge, they chase.
That`s why i do Endangerment if secoff made a call and missed right into bystander(do same for myself).
They can shoot John Tyder for punching secoff or spider. If they dont hit anyone else, good they did it.
They shot someone when it could have been avoided, go sit off 3-5 min and if lawyer asks. They allready served sentence. Otherwise if lawyer have good argument - they are going for higher time. Become better, smarter and learn. Or get a bit of jail time(since i will handle everything like this IC).
Oh it is making it less safe for that round maybe. For like 3-5 min. Sec have higher standard of play and also have more protection.
In SS13 if you go full shitsec. People can rebel and department welder bomb, cargo can rebel, Sci can build mechas and grind sec into paste or die trying. Without being perma banned for self-antag.(aka Rebellion\Rioting)
In ss14 you are protected against all of that. Its literally forbidden by rule design. If non antag welder bombs sec, they will be bwoiked after someone get to it after log reading. May take couple days. But they get bwoinked.
Sec is also extremely STRONG in SS14, compared to 13.
In ss13 there is enough delay for me to comfortably fight 3 people(as antag with antag goodies), with use of other people as shield, using toolbox to the head throw stun etc. There secoff either work in pairs or die alone
In ss14 two Secoffs can literally kill almost anything with exclusion of wizzard and salvage revs.
Damn here secoffs so confident they literally dive into maints rounds start… ALONE. Half of the time with coords OFF.(While in ss13 round-start maints dive alone and meeting antag is the same as them eating their own gun)
Also never once saw anyone using flashbang or tear gas.
Collateral damage definitely more than just a shootout, any engagement with firearms between a sec officer and a threat is liable to having collateral damage.
(You also forgot that players can control spiders, slimes carps etc. as ghost roles. they most certainly CAN dodge)
I’m not going to treat a sec officer that hit someone by accident while fighting a hostile mob any different than any other crew member or borg that hits someone on accident while trying to melee a spider. Which means, its either “hey watch your hits” or “shit happens let’s get healed”
I would sooner charge an officer that was too scared to pull out his gun to kill a hostile mob with endangerment (failure to act) than I would to charge someone with endangerment for killing a hostile mob but hitting a few stray shots on bystanders.
Was this officer extremely reckless in their use of a firearm? (IE 1 hand spraying with a drozd in a crowded medbay to kill an angry mouse)
Was it reasonable that the officer’s perception of the situation warranted the use of firearms to prevent harm to the crew?
Was it reasonable to believe that the use of firearms prevented more harm to the crew than was reasonably believed to be caused by missed shots?
Would a reasonable officer with sound judgement believe that inaction cause would cause more harm to the crew, than deploying his or her firearm would?
If an officer was not extremely reckless, needed to deploy a firearm to prevent harm, believed that more harm would be prevented than would come from strays, and believed inaction would cause more crew harm; then I believe he did nothing wrong. The bar for this has to be very high because once again VIOLATING SPACE LAW AS SEC IS AN OOC ISSUE NOT AN IC ISSUE. If an officer is being reckless enough to be charged with a space law violation, they also need a role ban from the sec department. This is not the case for the VAST majority of friendly fire incidents. I have no case to make for or against comparing it to ss13 and frankly comparing the 2 has nothing to do with the point at hand.
ooh, i tought you where talking about server rules. Damn, i have to re-read them.
But yeah, ofc that you would arrest someone for making a hazard like that.
From an IC perspective and not OOC, since I already did address that, consider the following situation:
Yesterday (#84187 lizard) I had a shift where a mime named Takes-The-Cake decided to rush into bridge, disarm me (HOS) during arrest and attack me and captain with my disabler/stun baton. This was a prepared tider, with a bag filled to the brim with items to apply stuns/slips.
As advised by this thread, I threw the book at them for this shittery. The result was a 14 minute sentence. Immediately a horde of people that recognized this players name started bashing down their cell, with said player doing the same.
After repeated attempts to breakout, they were moved to perma. In perma, a tarantula ghost role spawned and specifically waited for security to walk in to attack, remaining docile to this seemingly famous perma prisoner. During removal of this tarantula ghost role by me and couple officers, the permad player tried their best to slip/stun us.
There were 3 people waiting outside in space of permabrig with a dufflebag (filled with EVA gear I assume) ready to break out this shitter. Which I’m pretty sure they managed to do, as Takes-The-Cake was then found roaming station, yet again armed with slip/stun tider gear and even mag boots.
Now, I am not sure what else is expected of me as the HOS in this situation. I tracking implanted the perma prisoner due to suspecting they were about to break him out. I used the provided space law to escalate and remove this shitter from the round. Yet all of this is useless when the community decides it’s a famous person that deserves to be a shitter to others?
I had to demote my own officer because they took this event personally and tried to arrest me (HOS) later on for random unrelated bullshit.
I guess my question is, WHY is this desirable to present players? It wasn’t 1, 2 or 3 people involved. It was even an officer. Am I handling this incorrectly? Should I just smile and wave at “funny” mime prepped with dozen stun/slips ready to fuck with sec/bridge?
Also is people were trying to break them out on mass. It is RIOTING. It is code RED. It is riot gear with shield\truncheon combo or harmbatton.
No one above law, regardless of who they are.
Cannot say anything about attempted secoff arrest, since i do not have context.
You still cannot force tracking implant on them, even if perma prisoner(without consent). Unless they are confirmed syndicate agent. You can howerer put electro pack on them that you multitool linked to your remote AND ELECTROCUTE THEM ON COOLDOWN anytime you need to enter perma.
RIOTING specifically cover situations like this, You have full authorization to gas and Stinger nade evryone involved.
If those people were non-antag. A-Help it instantly
If they used toolbox, knife, folding chair - anything to hit secoffs trying to rearest prisoner. They used lethal improvised weaponry. Lethals authorized against those people
Break of Metashield most likely. A-Help this
Also for me it looks like they used META comms. Which is also breach of metashield.
P.S. Screw it. I am downloading replay and looking at this thing
If this is an accurate version of events and the tider and those helping them were not antags, the imporant thing is to simply ahelp those involved.
As far as what you can do in the round Magada mostly covered it
Electro pack on the prisoner will shut down escape attempts, and use riot gear to arrest the group trying to break them out.
And if there’s people breaking the perma windows from space, grab lasers and shoot them through it. You dont have a reasonable way to detain them non-lethally in space while theyre attempting a prison break after all.
1.Mime did a secure trespass
2.Slipped hos(nothing serious, mime things)
3. Grabbed baton(okay possession of major contra and resisting arrest)
4. Was trying to hit HoS with it(escalation to assault, lethal force can be avoided)
5. HoS did a good escalation by following with disabler, good restraint
6. Mime get hold of disabler
(Would recommend carry flashbang and gas. Flashbang can detonatate in you pocket cuz you have flash protection, gas can be used - since you knwo when your internals are on)
7.Mime shoots disabler at captain
(Immediate lethal force is authorised. Which you did. Good fast thinking there)
8.Instant medical help to mime at sec. No waiting for med, instant
(pretty nice)
9.Mime destroy stuff, which means you are allowed to restart timer
(Also sorry for you sec employees, they kinda… eh…)
10. Three people armed with lethal weaponry break into brig after refusing to disperse, even after getting hit with flashbang
(Riot gear authorised right then and there. Its truncheon hunting time. Keep it in mind for future. Their crimes Rioting\MinorContra\Breach of custody. So 5min+10min+15min for all 3 individuals unless they are really sorry - the you can reduce it to 10)
11. Mime did so many breached of custody by this point. It is perma or execution if captain authorize it
( i do love a good public execution of tiders or extreme shitters)
12.Props to warden paying attention people allready spent in sec
(Pretty good)
13.Tarantula was not metagaming or protecting mime. Just a random thing
14.The trio was also not metagaming. Also props to you on Secure trespass armory exterior. Only engines can be here for long time(For that to count they must be there for some time and not just passing by)
15.Does not look like sec off knew about space area lingering. Kinda grey unexplained area. But again, that place literally have mines for a reason.
(Need a clarification. I dont think he was malicious, just didnt know things)
16. Mime using bat to destroy sec doors, he destroyed cameras before that
17. Same arrested passenger breach secure mines zone again and leave EVA near window, puts it on other side later(cuz mines prob). Breaches Sec via deconstrated escape pod for a moment(someone stole engine)
18. Mime breach final door into sec lobby, breaks locker with his stuff(also nevermind me giving benefit of the doubt to that sec guy. He is stupid)
19. Sec ignores mime, because dragon. Smart decision
(they are still slow to arm, need training)
That`s my review. You did everything right. Mime was doing mime thing and escaped alone. They refused outside help from tider
P.S. I do think you were a bit too forgiving and kind. But hey, you will learn how to request shitter execution eventually. I would be turning on the “ShitsecRunner” mode after i saw rioting(Walking on the edge of shitsecerry, walk a line but dont cross). And beat the those people to near death(truncheon), gag them in cell, flash them everytime they hit furniture. Not a breach of space Law, but being extremely mean withing space Law
I am an MRP main so this answer is going though the lense of MRP and I watched the replay of the fight
So, firstly as you wasn’t warden this shift you shouldn’t been giving out setences. Wardens entire role is to hand out setences and watch the prionsers so you should let them do there job Tell them the crimes commited and leave setencing to them.
Secondly. you gave no verbal warning. going from setting them as wanted to stun batoning them without giving them any verbel chance to leave. this breaks Server Rule 2.11 (over escalation) and if picked up by an admin would result in a warning if your first time over escalating
onto the mimes crimes
Secure tresspass (3-04)
Breech of arrest (3-00)
Assalt (3-05)
Pocession and usage of major contriband (2-01)
These are stackable crimes, a second account of both Assalt and Major Contriband are not stackable.
Maximium possible Sentence, 35 minutes. As this is beyond 15 minutes Perma is open as an option. So 14 minutes was less than half the maximum possible setence.
Moving onto interactions in the cell area. Firstly you was rather rude to the lawyer please try to be nicer. You removed the mimes mask for no reason and given the way they responded (pointing to their mask repeatedly) they was distressed over it, this likely didn’t help the situation but isn’t aganist spacelaw.
The mime doesn’t try to break out of the cell until a already arrested criminal attacks the cell, why they wasn’t escorted out of sec after release is beyond me.
After that they use the broken materials to make two pipes and attacked the walls starting to break out. where in sec opened the cells and they ran out but was re-arrested.
Adding
Breech of custody 4-00 (+15 minutes)
Destruction of properity. (+5 minute) which if told to them after each item they destoryed could of added +15 minutes+15 minutes (repeat offense x2) (officers was literally watching)
3 minutes was added to the timer (total arrest time 17 minutes)
an officer opened the cell again and they ran out
Breech of cusody +15 minutes +5 repeat crime
They ran into wardens office
Sec-tresspass +10 minutes +5 repeat crime
they got rearrested but ran out AGAIN
+15 minutes breech of cusody +10 repeat crime
and a fourth time
+15 minutes +15 repeat crime
At this stage people outside the cells start rioting over you removing their mask which is why I’d recomend not taking things like clown/mime clothes including masks off them.
they break out with a pipe destorying the cell (+15+20 minutes again) and now finally get perma for it.
In perma shinganas do happen around the spider which could be classed as endangerment and are certainly aiding an antagnonist (but they are already perma’d (+5 minutes 2-05), then they make a baseball bat (minor contriband +warning) then go around and break all aI’s (2-03) cams (as no officer witnessed only one charge as rest would be repeats +5m +5m repeat crime. officers run in and try to arrest with no verbal again.
they dont find the bat on the table. they use this bat to break down perma’s doors (15+25 for breech of custody x6) and then get into brig med to heal the wounds that you gave them all the way back at the bridge fight that you never fully healed and should have (See treatment of prisoners)
They get mail and cut it open giving a fine to the station of 113 spacoes as well as not getting the 454 spaceos mail is worth, for a total net loss of -567 spacoes
Destoryed portable flasher, sec door (2-03) 5+10 2nd repeat.
Sec tresspass breaking into warden office again (10+10)
breech of cusody 7th repeat. (15+30)
Entering Sci tresspass (warning) (non stackable at this time)
Petty theft (warning)
Vadlism (warning)
contraband engi stuff (warning)
breaking into engi, secure trepess non-stackable with the last one
resisting arrest AGAIN (3-00)
In my opinon as a non-mod This is a clear case of Self-Antag. having broke permas doors, broke a cell wide open. Aided an Antagist (the spider by slipping sec) made 6 escape attempts. broke into the bridge and that wacky 10-15m chase at evac time. Ahelp may not have aided at the time but Im pretty certain this is Self-antag behaviour
Not on the bridge. It is High Secure area. There baton is permitted on sight, since it is arrest on sight. Aka Secure Trespass, which is major crime. Sure head can ask them to leave. But as a secoff it is a MAJOR crime. IF you are not aresting this person, you are in violation of Space Law. They were also trying to hide. If they compliant you can reduce their sentence to like 0.000001 sec. But by space law they need to go trough sec door. People are just ignoring it, since usually it is no harm. Captain can parole this(since only he can authorize bridge presence)
You do need to ask people leave. And can even not arrest them on a Normal trespass which is minor crime
P.S. And i get why people tend to ignore bridge as high secure area in ss14. Since its mainly evac console.
But in 13 it`s mainframe controls, Robotics controls, Remote AI controls. If i get into this rooms as antag in 13 majority of station personnel WILL die in next 8-10 minutes. Which is why it is secure area
Incorrect. Both the HoS and normal security officers can sentence prisoners; the idea that only the warden can do this is a complete misconception, and just slows security down for no good reason.
That’s also the most low-stakes example of over-escalation imaginable. Arresting someone who’s in a Command-only area without first warning them is barely an issue; they know they’re not meant to be there.
Citation needed. I see nothing in 2.11 for exemption for sitting on the bridge skipping P1 when the mime has not shown any agression.
Ah you edited. I wouldn’t think the bridge is a high sec area given you cant really harm the station. the examples of high risk area’s was the armory and atmos. I’d also extend this to AI upload, and Singlo/Telsa contaiment and PA
I also entirely agree they should arrest but they could of said something along the lines of “alright. your under arrest for Secure tresspass. Come peacefully and it’ll be easier for both of us” Verbal doesn’t always mean just talk it out and let them go.
Not exactly. Warden still needs to control sentencing.
Yes Sec-offs and HoS can help him with that. But it is his main job to control sentencing and deciding sentencing. If HoS and Warden disagree on sentence, Warden override HoS by default.
While HoS have final word on when to and how arm sec-offs and sec personal in general.
Citation needed on that claim about sentencing - space law only states that it’s the responsibility of the Captain, HoS, and warden to ensure sentences are correct, and that security officers should inform the warden when sentencing.