Players abusing lack of admins and lax rules/enforcement

General
1

Every round playing as security feels like there’s a few regular players ban-baiting people the entire shift, knowing full well that security cannot actually deal with them because they’ll get role-banned.

I would describe the behavior as mobbing, or targeted bullying by a few individuals. These players will spend their non-antag rounds:

  • welding/locking people into personal crates
  • rushing inside brig looking for trouble every time the door opens
  • setting up barricades or giant slip puddles in front of brig
  • dragging away anyone that security tries to cuff
  • disarm/shoving/punching security while hiding their sprite behind innocent bystanders
  • stealing security gear from outposts around station
  • pretending to be revolutionaries, flashing included

I’ve ahelped multiple times, however the behavior persists as I suspect these “minor” issues are desired gameplay according to game design documents about security friction. Or there’s simply not enough admins during these rounds. Replays do not function and crash, so I can’t even make player reports about this behavior.

It is my belief that it is only a handful of players that systematically encourage this behavior shift after shift.

Non-antags should not be indistinguishable from actual antagonists, there needs to be effective means for security to quickly round-remove these people and not have to spend entire shift dealing with their sadism.

Nobody is harassing medical players for healing people, nobody is harassing science for researching, nobody starts the round and decides to antagonize an entire department.

Except when that department is security, then it is not only acceptable but “cool” to do and people cheer when it happens. This behavior cancerous and needs to end.

I propose a simple addendum to space law: If you intentionally target security crew (shoves, disarms, punches, theft, interfering with arrests etc.), brig entry or brig itself within 15 minutes of start of shift, you’ll get a permabrig sentence.

2

Clown slips a sec who was walking around with their baton inhand and throws the baton down disposals at 10 mins in, permabrig. They are now there for the next hour and a half, meanwhile actual shitters will just wait for 15 mins into the round.
If your concerns are with people baiting, what stops those same people from playing sec and baiting people? Especially with such an overtuned law.

Ingame you already have the tools available to deal with these issues and these do not cover the problems you mentioned above and are already covered by space law. We even have stun uncuffs now to stop people rushing out of cells and genpop features.

Ingame we already also have the tools available to deal with these issues as sec, bar the sprite abusing.

Also I don’t know what you’re on about saying sec get rolebans for doing their job properly. Maybe this is just the bias of my personal experience, but seriously when is that a thing?

Good, those departments dont have the ability to stuncuff, brig then delete 10 mins of your round for doing these acts, however sec does have these tools.

I like dealing with non-antag crime, it gives sec something to do between the few big antag crimes each game. And I don’t need a way for non-antags to be distinguishable from antags, im there to protect the station and crew, I am not there to deny greentext. Its irelevant if the tider or the syndicate agent has a mosin, a threat to the station has a mosin.

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As someone who plays sec a lot, just ignore tiny harmless self antag if you have other things to do. It’s not like you have a quota of arrests to make. That, or robust the hell out of them with harmbaton until they understand /s.

The only remotely problematic thing you quoted is people acting like revs when they aren’t, that’s a metashield break.

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All of these are things you can arrest people for. Endangerment/kidnapping, secure trespass, disturbance/debatably vandalism, breach of arrest, assault, petty or grand theft, assault again… and of course, if you ask them to stop any of this and they don’t, you can tack failure to comply onto any of them.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that addressing these crimes IC is roleban-worthy. A criminal’s a criminal; antag status is only relevant when ahelping them.

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5

As a warden player: its literally allready have laws.
welding/locking people into personal crates - Kidnapping is 15 minutes and permaBrig on repeat(unless it was consensual),
f they start running around sec on release. Baton and re-arrest since they allready were released and commited Failure to Comply so another 5 minutes. If they keep repeating that, that`s a free punching dummy for warden. I love punching dummies

rushing inside brig looking for trouble every time the door opens - Trespass or Secure Trespass. One time remove from area, two times? Arrest 5-10 min depending on areas entered. Ask warden or HoS write restarining order for for entering those areas. Serve them a copy and keep one copy to yourself. They do it again without actual permmision from department of that area? You are going to permaBrig buddy

setting up barricades or giant slip puddles in front of brig- Disturbance for puddles. 1st warning, 2nd 5 min. They Run? GOOD. Breach of aresst is 10 minutes. So 15 minutes(i would still give 10)

dragging away anyone that security tries to cuff- Breach of Arrest or Kidnapping(depending on how annoying they were), since they are aiding in crirminal escape its Breach of Arrest. But if person arrested say they have nothing to do with it and never saw them in their life. Then we have clear Kidnapping on our hands

disarm/shoving/punching security while hiding their sprite behind innocent bystanders- Assault/Battery is 10 minutes. If they used people as shield or even hurt them. I would add failure comply on top of that. And if they got sec weapon this way throw in major contra on top of that so 20 minutes

stealing security gear from outposts around station- Need detective for this one. For their door logs.So we can add Secure Trespass on top of major contra so we get 15 minutes. And if they Fail to comply or resist arrest. Even better

pretending to be revolutionaries, flashing included - Can be Rioting. Which allows code red.(if its multiple people). Still it is Assault/Battery tho(flashing people. Same goes for soda). With both its 20 min and if there was breach of arrest its 30. Also fllashes are sci, sec, command thing so minor contra is another 5 min

And if they really piss you off. Complain to warden about it. If they are fed up as you are, you can get a rare WARDENLOOSE. Batton? Disabler? How about shotgun with disabler.

Oh you hit me warden toolbox\bat etc? They do love lethal mode on this thing.
Also if you are a bit new to sec. The moment they use toolbox, knife, shovel, glass shard. Forget non- lethal, watch bystanders and magdump them.(also ask detective to get your blood from said weapon, so you have evidence)

Always carry one flashbang just in case too, if they gonna no flash protection its really easy disorientation tool. Or tear gas nades, you already know when you gonna throw it, you most likely already wear breath mask, internals on and activate it.

You hit someone on accident? That`s bad, go into sec. Set your timer to 5 minutes for Endangerment and just lay on a bed(while keeping all your gear still on you).
If i saw that i would do a full legal investigation of bringing you soda and some donuts or donks.

Also if your warden, HoS and other secoffs ignore this. Congratz you are the most competent sec off on the station with this knowledge.

And no i dont go 1984 usually. But if people want to be shitters, then it`s time to walk thin line between Shitsec and SOP sec. Just remember NEVER GO FULL SHITSEC.

And for the love of everything. Stop rushing maints, ESPECIALLY ALONE. You have no reason to be there unless something happened.
And if you do, use buddy system. Get a damn second person to go with you

P.S. Also if you got tider raid. IT IS RIOTING, IT IS CODE RED, IF THEY KILL ANYONE IT IS LETHAL AUTHORIZATION. Get riot shield, armor and stun baton them. They fight back, KILL.(If gods\CC not there. You need to handle it IC)

3 Likes
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Ahelp also try not to interfear with on going rounds and dont have to reply back to reports to show they are investigating. indeed some of the guidance even says to purposely wait 30 minutes to see if other reports come in. I read the ban appeals and I’ve seen folks banned lube bombing outside sec more than once in a shift as self-antag. Just cause you cant see the bwoink others get dont mean they didnt get them :3

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In case it was not clear.
Arresting people for crimes is NOT a bannable offense, no matter how small it is. At worst you may get ahelped to confirm stuff or booed by crew that may not even have the whole story.
In case of ahelp, once you prove you did it based on your known information and adhering to space law, you will be fine.

I think a lot of people assume that general sec incompetence or command leniency on shittery means that stuff is not illegal, because others do not punish it so it can’t be punished. That is not the case. Laws as written always have precedence over server culture, at least you cannot get banned for taking it that way, i cannot say the same for popularity among other players.

Sec is always going to be seen as the “bad guys” and the game’s theming pushes for it. It is just part of the game.

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8

I have to disagree with this part of your post. If I’m fighting a spider, snake, slime, or god forbid a clown spider, and I shoot or stab someone by accident trying to kill it, I’m not at fault. If I’m hos using the energy shotgun and 4/5 shots connect with the hostile mob and the 5th one hits fucking granny Gertrude, sorry you wrinkly thing, but that spider is gonna hurt you a lot more than my almost perfect aim did. Also the crew is kinda stupid and will run right in between you and the mob trying to hit it with a crowbar when you are trying to shoot it. Like if you don’t wanna be shot, GET OUT OF THE WAY GERTRUDE! YOURE LIKE 100 YEARS OLD AND BLIND LET THE PROFESSIONALS HANDLE THIS. STOP HITTING ME WITH YOUR WALKING STICK I HAVE 2 LEGS! 2!

2 Likes
9

Admeme here.

I overall agree with the sentiment of the OP, however generally there’s not much going on in the shift before the first 10 minutes.

If there’s players explicitly spending their entire shift griefing security, it simply falls under self antag.

The issue with this is that the server culture is so ingrained that “sec is the bad guy, the tider who stole 4 batons and 3 handguns is the good guy” and then nobody Ahelps this quite obviously self antag behavior.

Even when we’re observing rounds, we can’t see everything at once, or we’re dealing with other shit.

An ahelp ensures that we can handle it immediately if we are present (we might delay our action to check logs or further observe) and it will be logged if we aren’t present.

The solution to this is simple.

AHELP SHIT MORE.

I’ve watched shitters get requested for a random search on Red, and once done turn the rest of their shift into a grudge against security while they’re dying to nukeops. These players get banned.

1 Like
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I am a frequent ahelper (even with Lizard culture lowering the bar for acceptable behavior), and while I can understand the exasperation from OP I also know admins do get to it. Sometimes it feels like it may be a matter of many drops filling a bucket, but the reports on a problem player do pile up against them.

Many of the comments in this thread seem to go at it from the point of view that Security has the tools to deal with shitters. And we do! But those tools still take time and effort to use, and often the shitter is not going down without a fight either. Even worse if they intend to cause trouble in the cell, something I expect we will see a lot more of once genpop is established due to its high access to breakout equipment. Yes, we can deal with it. But it takes time.

(It doesn’t help having an oblivious Warden/HoS getting mad at you for giving a justified high sentence to a shitter.)

If you let out an antag from jail, it might take a while for them to re-offend as they gotta gather gear and weapons and try to do their objective. Some shitters barely make it out of the department before they start constructing walls again.

11

Being fair, sec IS painted as the bad guys.
They dress like some sort of gestapo, their vendors literally promote abuse of power and brutality and the role usually attracts people on a power trip (plus, when they do make a mistake and arrest someone by accident, it usually tends to create grudges against the whole department).

I am not sure if this is even something that needs or CAN be addressed tho.

And on that self antag part. A tider stealing some contraband like that is hard to classify as self-antag.
A laser rifle? QM’s digiboard? the nuke disk? Sure. Sec’s weakest gun and the stun tool every sec starts with? eh. It doesn’t even disrupt sec, it is just someone committing a crime that, from rules as written, it really isn’t that bad (it was like a medium tier crime iirc, not even major).

Would that mean that ANYTHING above a minor crime is an instant self-antag then? That ONLY antags can ever even face charges of that caliber? This is assuming the shift is slow, a.k.a there is no real danger from the act.
And unless it was changed, rioting is a server-wide rule break, meaning that there is no loophole where a bunch of people can storm sec and get away with just IC punishments.

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If they engage in a way, It is not your fault.

However if they minding their business and you unload gun in corridor and hit someone it actually is. Thats why its only 5 minutes otherwise if they contacted lawyer it would be either trial or you sitting 15-30 min in sec with me. While we negotiate with said lawyer doing RP interaction because he claim Attempted Murder of his client.

Also unloading a gun without checking line of fire is a BIG NO in IRL too. That i can tell you as person who was trained to use military riffles.

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“Do not make yourself a major problem, annoyance, or disruption while not an antagonist.”

Typically I’d say common sense can be used to tell if someone is self-antagging via the rules definition here.

There is something that can be done however. First of all, aHelp it like Admiral said if you think someone is really self-antagging. Even if you’re wrong and they’re an antag, it doesn’t hurt anything to shoot a quick message in the aHelp menu.

Secondly, just give them harsher sentences. I always give shitters harsher sentences. Repeatedly make yourself a problem during the shift after I was patient and warned you not to? Boom, max sentence timers from there on out. Keep it up? Repeated offense extra time. Still persistent on being a problem? Perma.

Surprise, they might not stop being a shitter, but they do stop being your problem when they’re stuck in perma all shift. What these trolls and repeat offenders don’t understand is that the lack of admin presence is a double edged sword. If my aHelp goes unanswered when I think you’re self-antagging, then welp you better hope your aHelp does get answered when I toss your ass in perma for the 3rd vandalism charge.

4 Likes
14

HOS who sides with the shitters is so infuriating lol. But i found the parade to that. I strip of all my sec gear in front of them and say i resign, makes me feel good IRL and IC it’s totally how Bobby jackson would handle it

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Sentencing is warden job.(which is why they must be at sec most of the time)

I usually harm throw a spacelaw book at such HoS and with setntence. If they dont like it, they can take it with captain.

If they interfere with my duties, i will go to captain and HoP to write them up.

Also i now started to give breach of arrest sentence to HoS if they dont have Captain sighed paper for parole.(i love my disabler shotgun)

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There is ways in dealing with shitters and non-shitters in this regard. A lot of these things can be a simple arrest and put them in a cell for a few minutes based on the charges. As they repeat the crimes, warden can simply dish out longer sentences due to repeated offenses or additional charges. If they get jailed often, they might be sitting in permabrig for those repeated crimes. Space Law is pretty straight forward in how things need to be dealt, and obviously, don’t magdump them just because you find them annoying.

As for if they to try kill you in any regard, you are allowed lethal authorization because they are trying to KILL YOU. Yes, you may get shit for it, but if your life is on the line, you are allowed to shoot them/stab them for this.

Like other have said, arresting people for crimes is not a bannable offense. Warden can always let them go, if they deem the crime to be too minor of an issue or even give them a shorter sentence than what you think it is, and doesn’t ALWAYS have to give out the maximum sentence. If you have an issue with this, YOU CAN ALWAYS TRY AND BE WARDEN.

The people who gets sec-role banned are usually the ones either magdumping over every small crime ever. You may not see them do this in that round, but things are noted by admins in which you usually can’t see, plus people may or may not always tell the truth. They might say they got role banned for no reason, in which reality, on the admin side, they have like 20 reports of this guy abusing power.

If you don’t want to play SEC during that round, either from people you disagree with or how sec is being handled, you can just leave the department entirely. You can turn in your gear and just ask HOP for a new job. You don’t have to agree with your boss and quit your job as an RP decision.

I end this off with a simple thing that can save your time against shitters, if they are carrying contraband, you can literally just confiscate the contraband, so that they don’t have it. Just because its LRP/MRP doesn’t change the fact its contraband.

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That is WAY too open of a definition.
wdym an annoyance? So you can’t even joke lightly if it would inconenience others? By that reasoning anyone who spills liquids on the floor is liable for server rule breaks. It is also ridiculously limiting.

I am not saying that anyone should be allowed to breach into sec and distribute guns to the crew or something like that (specially when other problems are afoot). But just an annoyance or disruption? Half the fun of the game are the adversities, if ONLY antags can cause adversities of any kind then it becomes so monotonous there may as well not even be a game.

It also completely glosses over the fact that even incompetence would become a rule break, because you did not set up power fast enough or because you didn’t manage to contain an anomaly, which is unrealistic.

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https://forum.spacestation14.com/t/stevefromwork-self-antagging-lube-bombing-sec-after-a-previous-lube-bomb-was-cleaned-recent-history-of-self-antagging/15162/2

yes.. lube bombing is a rule break

And heres the compreshesive search
https://forum.spacestation14.com/search?q=lube%20%23ban-appeals%3Aappeals-game%20order%3Alikes

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I never said lube bombing.
There is a huge difference between spilling a can of slippery fluid (like water) or even a bottle of lube vs an actual lube bomb.

Lube is magnitudes worse than any other liquid, specially now. It is not just an annoyance by any means, it is worse than spacing.

20

I think a lot of the trouble comes from how variable sec players are with what they do and don’t pursue. I don’t think it’s a problem if a secoff ignores someone hacking a vendor, but I think it’s become common to even break into engineering which goes unreported and unpunished.

Players shouldn’t expect to do stuff like that without consequences. As sec you’re totally within your rights to arrest someone over it. They can cry all they want for the 5 minute sentence but if they don’t want it they shouldn’t do it or they shouldn’t get caught.

Bit off topic, but I see this sentiment a lot. I think a warden is eventually responsible for sentences, but isn’t necessarily responsible for all sentencing. I really hate it when I play warden and a secoff brings someone in for major contra, and asks me if a 5 minute sentence is OK. Officers can and should sentence people themselves. Not up to the warden how much of a hardass you want to be.

Some wardens prefer to do all sentencing, but in my experience that quickly leaves you overwhelmed if you’re interviewing one secoff about one arrest and a next one comes in. The warden VERY quickly becomes a bottleneck.

God knows we’re not always blessed with good wardens. I’ve seen wardens interpret welderbombing med as terrorism. But if I am warden and I remember to do it, I let my officers on shift start radio know to do their own sentencing and just let me know what it’s for. I can adjust accordingly if I want to. On sentences 10 minutes and over I ask officers to get me properly involved.

In relation to the post, for shitters this is really important IMO. Give your officers the liberty to punish shittery. FAST. Don’t let them get stuck in sec for any longer than they have to if they just want to give someone 5 minutes because they slipped them for the 10th time.

Relevant parts of space law for this perspective:

From a server rules perspective, security officers are only responsible for ensuring that they only place sentences over 15 minutes where space law would allow permanent confinement. Informing the Warden is highly recommended, even for timed sentences. As long as those requirements are met, security officers not giving inappropriate sentence lengths is considered an in-character issue, not a rule issue.

The captain, HOS, and warden are responsible, within reason, for ensuring security officers place appropriate sentences that follow space law.

But it’s also just practical. Stop getting stuck in sec with sentencing.