Plibsyploppers - "Antag Rolling"

[plibsyploppers]

Username: plibsyploppers

Ban reason: "Antag Rolling"
Length of ban: One Month
Ban Issue:
I did not do what I was banned for

Vote Opt-Out: false

Events leading to the ban

I was spectating on both Lizard and Leviathian. I was sent an admin message on one of the two while I was playing on the other. They asked what I was doing, and I said that I was spectating on both servers. They said it was antag rolling. I apologized, and I said I would leave. They then banned me for a month.

My problem with this, is, in your own rules, under ‘Do not abandon your role’, in the ‘Details’ section, it reads:
‘“Antag rolling” refers to a player abandoning their role if they do not get an antagonist role.’

By definition, I did not do this, as I did not enter the game as a role in either server during the duration of that round. To abandon your role, and therefore commit ‘Antag rolling’, you must first be in the round to begin with, as seen below:

Furthermore, in your ‘Against the rules’ section (Or any of your rules, for that matter), none of the examples clearly say that you cannot spectate on multiple servers and take antag roles on either.

I did not do antag rolling by what is defined in the rules. If you have rulings other than that, you should put it in there.

Reason the ban should be removed

By your rules, I did not do what I was accused of.

Additionally:

I do believe that it is not general practice for people to be instantly banned for a whole month, as corroborated by questions I have asked in the discord. I offered to leave the other server, but I was given a response along the lines of:
“Nah, you’re banned for a month”

This seems greatly against standard practice, and quite rude. Frankly, I am upset that my antagonist round was interrupted with an overly severe ban for something that I did not even commit, or if I did (In one admin’s opinion), it was unclear in the rules.

Overall, I am now paying the inconvenience for another person’s negligence. Thank you for your time.

Alternate Accounts

None

Edit: I added some pictures (and quotes) to illustrate my point!

[Repo]

With regards to your DM asking for context on the ban reason:

I cant really process the ban appeal because i was the banning admin. I will ask someone on the team to work on it for you though.

For the context on the ban on my side.
You were in two servers concurrently You took two observer roles, The abandonment here, you clearly abandoned one of your observer roles as it is not physically possible to do both in the sense you can not observe 2 games.
You were purely there to fish out an antag role which was clear as there were several other ghost roles that showed up and you waited to take the ninja role.
There were several people that were queuing up for the ninja in the raffle that had died in round or were genuinely observing the round and you sitting in multiple servers just fishing out the best antags for your self is just a clear exploitation of the current system.
This isn’t directly relevant to the ban reason but when you take those two slots especially right now when all the servers are at full capacity most of the time, you are taking away a normal slot from another player for no other reason than to antag roll.

In the future there will be mechanical solutions to prevent this but up to now antag rolling bans have been given for this exact same scenario where players were using concurrent connections to fish for antags.

In the aHelp i did not believe you to be genuine due to your prior warning and actions in doing this and considering your high playtime and knowledge of this subject.

In regards to the ban length you have been previously warned for antag rolling and have a moderate amount of prior historic issues and bans which factors in but i did not believe it warranted a indef ban.

[plibsyploppers]

Sure! These are some great points, and I will disprove them one by one.

1. Beginning with the claim that I abandoned my observer role, that is impossible to prove. There are clear ways to tell if someone abandons an actual role, however, you physically cannot prove that I abandoned an observer role. Observers have no duties, and therefore, you cannot abandon your duties! Nothing is listed as your job when you join the server by clicking the ‘Observe’ button. You should add this to your rules/game if you don’t want it to happen.

2. I was not there to fish an antagonist role. Assuming that, just because I did not take any other roles, I must be fishing for specifically ninja, is another example of a fallacy. Specifically, an Inductive Fallacy. You have loose evidence of me ‘fishing for Ninja’, when there are various other explanations that I would venture to imagine you have not even considered. Your conclusion is based on a faulty premise/evidence base. I happened to come back from the bathroom when Ninja was up for grabs, and I decided to indulge myself. Again, you are assuming what I was doing with absolutely no evidence! On the topic of “several other people queuing up for the ninja role,” this is an appeal to emotion. Just because other people wanted the role does not have any bearing on the topic of my ban. This is, generally, an appeal to emotion, or more specifically, an argumentum ad misericordiam

3. Taking up two slots is not against the rules! Your job is to enforce the rules. This is our first example of a paralipsis. If you do not believe something is relevant to a given conversation, you should not bring it up.

4. Please provide examples of previous bans and put it in your rules if you wish to punish people for it. Typically, when you raise a point in any argument, you shouldn’t bring up that there are previous scenarios, and continue to not list them/how they affect the current argument. Furthermore, you are using the fact that it has happened previously to justify it happening now. Both of these combine to an Appeal to Tradition and an example of a loose Paralipsis.

5. You didn’t really give me much time to prove myself in a-help! Please post the logs so everyone can see them. I feel it would be very educational for anyone looking into this.

6. First of all, in this paragraph, you are committing a hasty generalization. You are believing, whether it be true or false, that I know the subject just because I have high playtime and a singular warning for antagonist rolling and no further complaints on that issue. If you believe that one warning and someone’s playtime are enough to classify how genuine someone is, I have to respectfully disagree.

7. I have had one instance of antagonist rolling since I first began playing Wizden. All of my other instances of being punished are fair, but not applicable to this case. Drawing an analogy, real-life courts do not take into account unrelated crimes when determining the guilt of someone, so I do not believe it is appropriate for you to do so either.

In conclusion, my main point is this: I do not believe your punishment was fair, your conduct reasonable, or any of your prior arguments to be sound. They are valid in Logical Reasoning, however, you commit several fallacies throughout that create an unsound argument.

[Repo]

Here is the aHelp as requested, admins are provided it as part of the processing too.

As you can see I asked an open ended question of which you immediately jumped to the exact issue we are here for, if you did not think it was wrong why even mention it.

You mentioned somewhere in edit or something about the previous antag rolling bans, here is ok search for a list of them:
https://forum.spacestation14.com/search?q=antag%20rolling%20tags%3Aappeal-server-ban

One of the more recent ones i can recall, where they were voucher banned for the exact same issue, multi connection observers antag rolling, although as a caveat they were not really listening to anything we said/warned about:

Zane - Cycling through the major servers multiple times in succesion looking for antag ghost roles

Username: Zane Ban reason: Cycling through the major servers multiple times in succesion looking for antag ghost roles Length of ban: Indefinite Ban Issue: What I was banned for is not against the rules Vote Opt-Out: false Events leading to the ban I would look through major severs looking for mid-round antag roles or other interesting roles. I had been informed of a possible rule change coming up so I would check to see if the rules had been updated before I would look for roles. I had n…

Re the CE comment, I don’t use rule 1 as ban justification as I believe its unfair to players as its essentially ‘just cause’ reasoning they may not have previously been aware of.
I do not believe I require it in this case either.

This is not a court case, we do use historic issues as an indicator and modifier of bans and enforcement.

Any way I’m not here to rule lawyer and from my experience, this is a very ineffective method to an appeal a ban.
I stand behind my justification and what I said in my previous reply and believe i have answered the ban context questions sufficiently.

I will leave any additional questioning and processing to whoever takes on this appeal.
Good luck with your ban appeal.

[plibsyploppers]

I appreciate the response! However, I must do my due diligence and respond to you, no matter your intent to continue responding!

1. I do not believe what I was doing was wrong! I am not an idiot, and I can deduce why I am getting a-helped pretty easily. It’s not exactly rocket science.

2. You provided a list of all antagonist rolling bans. I was asking for examples of bans. When you provided it, your example was not at all analogous to my situation, which you do point out, but it does not make it logically sound to provide. This is an example of a False Analogy. You provided an example that was not applicable, as I was not provably hunting for antagonists, and I was quick to offer a solution during the fact. Furthermore, if it has been a historic issue, why is it not in your rules?

3. By providing the Chief Engineer’s quote, my goal was not to say you were using Rule 1 as a justification. My main goal in providing that quote was disputing that you should have banned me for a month, on a first offense in this specific circumstance, for something that is not at all clear in the rules. Furthermore, this is an example of the Strawman Fallacy. You are, whether misguided or on purpose, falsely stating my argument to be that you abused Rule 1.

4. This is essentially a reversed court case. I am guilty until proven innocent. I must, therefore, dispute evidence you are putting forward that is not relevant.

5. I am not rule lawyering. I am attempting to show you why you are objectively wrong about your own server’s rules. The term rule lawyering generally is only used to put off or dispute actual qualms about how admins conduct themselves.

6. This is another example of a type of Red Herring, known as the I’m entitled to my opinion fallacy. Saying that you stand behind your justification and believe you are right does not mean that you are, logically, correct.

You disputed none of the issues in the reasoning I pointed out, and I believe that I should have illustrated the blatant flaws in your argument to anyone reading. I hope you can improve on your punishment ethics, escalation of punishment, and ability to refute and present logical arguments.

Thanks!

[Chief_Engineer]

I’m helping one of our trialmins process this appeal, please answer the following question from them:

I understand that your position is that you were not trying to Antag roll, if so can you explain what you were doing spectating two servers?

[plibsyploppers]

I like to spectate. There wasn’t much going on in Leviathan. Even if I was doing it with the intention of getting more chances at ghost roles (which I was not), that would, by the definition of your written rules, not be antagonist rolling, but I have said my piece on that.

[Chief_Engineer]

More from the trialmin:

I appreciate the speedy response. Another question if you don’t mind. If nothing was happening on Leviathan why not just disconnect and then begin spectating elsewhere allowing at least for another user to connect at the very least.

[plibsyploppers]

I don’t know. It didn’t really cross my mind at the time. Taking up two slots isn’t against the rules, to my knowledge.

[Chief_Engineer]

Sorry for the delay in processing and in getting this message posted. Four days ago, the trialmin processing your appeal unbanned you. The general result of the discussion that led to this outcome was that the admin team believes observing multiple servers simultaneously is unfair to other players, but that you’ve already been banned for an appropriate amount of time considering the situation and that this is not explicitly against our rules.

Again, sorry for the delay in processing and the delayed update

[plibsyploppers]

I’m not unbanned.