Request For Comment, Escalation Rewrite

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1

Escalation Simplification

Escalation Steps

The following levels are the steps involved with escalation, when combat starts for the first time it begins at level 1.

  • Unarmed combat, excluding combat-enhancements such as drugs or martial arts, such as ephedrine variants, northstars, brass knuckles, which are classified as lethal.
  • Combat involving non-lethal enhancements, civilian items or weapons which are designed to exhaust or repel, rather than kill, such as stun batons and disablers or common tools like crowbars.
  • Lethal combat and the use of deadly weapons. Guns, majority of bladed weapons from shivs ships up, and explosives all start lethal combat under this policy.

Depending on your role, you may be exempt from these steps. For example, traitors are welcome to kill anyone who attack them, regardless of escalation. Good roleplay may justify skipping the unarmed phase of combat.

Aggressors and Defenders

A player is considered the aggressor when any of the following is met:

  • They perform the first strike.

  • They are trespassing.

  • They are chasing a player who is attempting to flee.

  • The aggressor must not escalate past what the defending player has responded with, and must seek medical treatment for their victim in the first instance of combat with someone.

  • Any player who is not an aggressor is a defender. Defenders may escalate one level above what the aggressor has used against them with the exception of defense against security, unless playing a free agent or hostile role.

  • Security may skip to the nonlethal stage of escalation (stage 2) if necessary to safely enact an arrest or search. Security may skip to the kill stage of escalation if it is clear the aggressor has nonlethals and will use it against them.

Further Clarification

This policy further lays out how conflicts are expected to be resolved. Any breaches of this policy will be classified as self-antag.

  • If someone is holding a weapon, or shows clear intent to use a weapon, then the unarmed phase of escalation may be skipped when initiating combat would otherwise be allowed.
  • You may not use lethal force against security until they have used it against you.
  • If someone is unable to continue fighting or surrenders by giving up their combat ability, harmfully damaging them further will be considered lethal combat regardless of the weapon used.
  • In the case of group combat, all participants in the combat encounter follow the same stage of escalation even if they have not personally performed actions that would escalate the conflict.
  • Players who witness the initiation of combat against another player may participate in the defense against the combatant, but are always considered an aggressor. Station/Crew aligned roles may help security, but cannot hinder security. Note, this does not mean crew aligned roles are permitted to seek out and kill or detain hostile or free agent roles, but it does permit crew to assist security in the immediate term if a fight occurs.
  • Players that refuse to disperse from a group of combatants may be treated as if they are part of that group of combatants, even if they have not performed any combat oriented actions.
  • Players healing or enhancing the combat capabilities of combatants before the conclusion of the encounter may be treated as combatants siding with those that they are assisting.
  • For trespassing, access does not imply authorization - authorization is granted by permission or the need to be in a location.
  • If a player initiates combat against another player more than once, the defender will not be considered an aggressor when chasing them.
  • While in the process of performing a capital crime, or any action that may lead to future harm, a player may be treated as an aggressor acting under the lethal force stage.
  • Initiating combat against security as as an aggressor while station aligned will be considered self antagonisim regardless of the circumstance.

Faction Escalation

Certain factions or antagonists have their own additions to the escalation policy that allow for different responses towards other players.

  • Not all factions are immediately obvious, once a character appears to be a part of a certain faction, or is performing actions that a specific faction would follow, then the appropriate response may be followed.

Station/Crew

  • Station/Crew are aligned to the station and should be friendly towards crew and should not be attempting to unnecessarily start conflict.

Free Agent

  • Free Agent roles have no alignment and do not need to be friendly towards the station, but must have a reason to initiate combat.
  • Free Agent defenders may skip to the ‘kill’ phase of escalation.
  • Defenders may skip to the ‘kill’ phase of escalation when fighting a Free Agent.

Hostile

  • Hostile roles are against the station.
  • Hostile roles may skip to the ‘kill’ phase of escalation immediately without any prior interaction.
  • Hostile aggressors and defenders may skip the ‘kill’ phase of escalation when fighting a role against their interest.
  • If the hostile role is a member of the station’s crew, security must follow space law and make attempts to revive the victim if the situation permits.
  • The crew must make a reasonable attempt to deconvert hostile roles that are known to be deconvertable.

This escalation policy was mostly taken and overhauled from Beestation13, it might be missing some key points of what escalation is but is intended to replace escalation rule 2.11 in it’s entirety.

2

From what I understand toolboxes hurt alot. under this they would they still be level 2 weapons (cIvillian item) or do they count as lethals from their high damage.

I personally am unsure if the change is nesscary but thats likely salamander mentality where brawls between crew are rare unless they are antags.

3

Players who witness the initiation of combat against another player may participate in the defense against the combatant, but are always considered an aggressor. Station/Crew aligned roles may help security, but cannot hinder security. Note, this does not mean crew aligned roles are permitted to seek out and kill or detain hostile or free agent roles, but it does permit crew to assist security in the immediate term if a fight occurs.

does this mean anyone with a sec ID cannot be fought against as a non antag? or if sec converted to a rev can I as a non rev beat them down?

and does this disregard all sec?

Not all factions are immediately obvious, once a character appears to be a part of a certain faction, or is performing actions that a specific faction would follow, then the appropriate response may be followed.

4

Shouldn’t this be given as a general point, not just under Hostile?
(Cuz it can go both ways, hostile can appear friendly and friendly can appear hostile)

5

what happens in a situation where you only get vision on the combat after its started and dont know who the agressor or defender is?

6

there is a common tactic of disarming security officers of their non-lethals during a chase, taking their Stunbaton to then stun and cuff the officer with wirecuffs.

Generally under both the old and these proposed escalations it was not allowed to escalate to lethals, however it was largely understood under the old rules that such actions was imminently lethal (which allowed that escalation)

Under these new rules, it could still be considered over-escalation to move to lethal when disarmed of your Non-lethals, both in the case of “My non-lethal is being used directly against me” and “all my non-lethal has been taken but pursuit is still ongoing”.

This point theoretically covers it however is vague enough to not instill confidence that all parties involved will see it as such.

It may be necessary to provide examples or further flesh out the Security escalation chain, as their interaction are largely more complicated and contain far more “gray zone” issues in regards to escalation

7

a clause allowing sec to go lethal when all non-lethal options have been removed would be good (EMP could remove non-lethals as well)

8

Updated to cover nonlethals versus security and by extension command.

9

I think these rules might be too specific in a way that actually makes escalation less clear. Having explicit rules like this means that edge cases are harder to judge. (Do boxing gloves count as a “nonlethal enhancement”? Is a mop considered a deadly weapon? How do you handle someone nonlethally disarming you of all your nonlethals? What happens if you walk into a fight as it’s happening and end up helping the wrong person?)

I also don’t think that overescalation should inherently be considered self-antagging; sec can already arrest you for Assault/Battery or Manslaughter if you overescalate a situation. I don’t think a chef using their cleaver against someone unexpectedly jumping the counter should be something that warrants an ahelp if sec’s expected to be giving them the business anyway.

Overall, I think the big thing is that escalation rules should less be server rules and more a “standard operating procedure” for Space Law. That would make edge cases easier to judge and would probably be better for verisimilitude (e.g if you start using a broken bottle in a bar fight, you’re not going to get divinely punished or anything, you’re just going to be arrested). Conveniently, this would also render foreign invaders like nukies and wizard entirely exempt from these escalation rules (since Space Law does not apply to them), so players don’t need to worry about getting banned if they try to fight back against a hostile station takeover.

10

We tried common sense escalation, it didn’t work, and now we have 14 paragraphs. This is an effort to try and reduce the complexity of the rules as written.

11

I’m not saying the escalation rules should be outright “use common sense” so much as I think the proposed changes are overly specific in a way that makes covering edge cases harder. Perhaps more importantly, overly specific rules are also harder for players to remember and follow.

2 Likes
12

Do I need to wait for ratking to become hostile once he’s nice and ready with 100+ rats, or can I still magdump ratkings on sight as security?

I’m not sure if ratking is a free agent or a hostile according to these rules, and it doesn’t seem free agents can be engaged without them turning hostile first.

13

If I understand the intention in the rewrite, you could lethal a ratking in the process of building an army under the :

While in the process of performing (…) any action that may lead to future harm, a player may be treated as an aggressor acting under the lethal force stage.

14

That would depend on decision of HoS and Captain. If HoS or Captain confirm code Rat. Then yeah, lethal options are on.

15

That’s not how wizden works, captain/hos doesn’t decide space law.

16

I propose the following changes. I have rewritten the original post and documented the changes below.

One concern I still have is some common tools, (like toolboxs as Naomi pointed out) are deadlier than a glass shiv. The feeling I’m getting is the intended purpose of the weapon is the deciding factor of lethal vs less lethal weapons instead of damage per second.

Revisions:

Escalation steps

Edited for clarity and changed traitors in the example to antagonists as I believe this is the intended meaning. Added deployment of deadly or incapacitating chemicals, (ex. lexorin bombs, Unstable mutagen hypo, Nocturine,) as a level 3 weapon

Aggressors and Defenders

Edited for clarity, added brandishing a weapon as an aggressor condition as stated in the further clarification section.

Further Clarification

Edited for clarity, added valid roleplay reason as reason to start combat as there ARE sometimes where it is justified to start a conflict (such as an imposter being declared, reasonable IC conflict, a sec officer possessed by THE MASK, attacking a paradox clone of yourself, arresting a fellow sec officer for breaking space law) added “extenuating circumstances” section. Under this section if you are low health and only have a gun and someone is trying to punch you to crit, you are still able to defend yourself.

Faction Escalation

Edited for clarity, Removed that free agents must need a reason to attack crew (Traditionally free agents such as The Rat King and closet skeletons have not needed a reason to murderbone)

Always Aggressors

added this section to clarify that some roles may always be treated as immediate threat just by their presence. Some of these roles are common sense and have always been “valid” others like the Rat King, Closet Skeleton and Cluwnes have been classified as “valid” targets by admins both on the forums and in game.

Rewritten Rules Proposal

Escalation Steps

The following levels are the steps involved with escalation, when combat starts for the first time it begins at level 1 and ends at level 3.

  • Level 1: Unarmed combat. This excludes combat-enhancements. See Level 3
  • Level 2: Combat involving non-lethal enhancements: civilian items or weapons which are designed to exhaust or repel, rather than kill, such as stun batons and disablers or common tools like crowbars.
  • Level 3: Lethal combat: The use of deadly weapons, guns, the majority of bladed weapons from shivs on up, and explosives all start lethal combat. Martial arts or ephedrine variants, Gloves of the North Star, brass knuckles, deployment of deadly chemicals are all considered lethal combat enhancements.

Some roles are exempt from these steps. For example, antagonists are welcome to kill anyone who attacks them, regardless of escalation. Good roleplay may justify skipping the unarmed phase of combat.

Aggressors and Defenders

A player is considered the aggressor when any of the following is met:

  • They perform the first strike.
  • They are trespassing. (Level 1)
  • They are chasing a player who is attempting to flee.
  • Brandishing a weapon during a conflict with intent to use it

The aggressor may match the level of escalation the defender is using but may not escalate past it. The Aggressor must seek medical treatment for the defender in the first instance of combat with the defender.

Any player who is not an aggressor is a defender. Crew-aligned Defenders may escalate one level above what the aggressor has used against them with the exception of defense against security.

Security may skip to the nonlethal stage of escalation, Level 2, if necessary to safely enact an arrest or search. Security may skip to the Lethal stage, Level 3, of escalation if it is clear the aggressor has nonlethal and will use it against them.

Further Clarification

This policy further lays out how conflicts are expected to be resolved. Any breaches of this policy will be classified as self-antagonism.

  • If someone is holding a weapon, or shows clear intent to use a weapon, then the unarmed phase of escalation, Level 1, may be skipped when initiating combat would otherwise be allowed.
  • You may not use lethal force, Level 3, against security until they have used it against you.
  • If someone is unable to continue fighting or surrenders by giving up their combat ability, harmfully damaging them further will be considered lethal combat, Level 3, regardless of the weapon used.
  • In the case of group combat, all participants in the combat encounter are considered to be on the same level of escalation even if they have not personally performed actions that would escalate the conflict.
  • Players who witness the initiation of combat against another player may participate in the defense of initial aggressor but are always considered an aggressor themselves. Station/Crew aligned roles may help security but cannot hinder security absent a valid roleplay reason. Note, this does not mean crew aligned roles are permitted to seek out and kill or detain hostile crew roles, but it does permit crew to assist security in the immediate term if a fight occurs.
  • Players that refuse to disperse from a group of combatants may be treated as if they are part of that group of combatants, even if they have not performed any combat-oriented actions.
  • Players healing or enhancing the combat capabilities of combatants before the conclusion of the encounter may be treated as combatants siding with those that they are assisting.
  • For trespassing, access does not imply authorization - authorization is granted by permission or the need to be in a location.
  • If a player initiates combat against another player more than once, the defender will not be considered an aggressor when chasing them.
  • While in the process of performing a capital crime, or any action that is likely to lead to future harm, a player may be treated as an aggressor acting under the lethal force stage.
  • Initiating combat against security as an aggressor while station aligned will be considered self-antagonism absent a valid roleplay reason.
  • Extenuating circumstances: If a defender is in danger of imminent death they may escalate to level 3 in order to save their own life. (Shooting someone approaching with a deadly chemical agent or repeatedly punching you when your health is low.)

Faction Escalation

Certain factions or antagonists have their own additions to the escalation policy that allow for different responses towards other players.

  • Not all factions are immediately obvious, once a character appears to be a part of a certain faction or is performing actions that a specific faction would follow, then the appropriate response may be followed.

Station/Crew

  • Station/Crew are aligned to the station and should be friendly towards crew and should not be attempting to unnecessarily start conflict.

Free Agent

  • Free Agent roles have no alignment and do not need to be friendly towards the station.
  • Free Agent defenders may skip to lethal force, Level 3, of escalation.
  • Defenders may skip to lethal force, Level 3, of escalation when fighting a Free Agent.

Hostile

  • Hostile roles are typically antagonists or free agents working against the station.
  • Hostile roles may skip to the ‘kill’ phase of escalation immediately without any prior interaction.
  • Hostile aggressors and defenders may skip the ‘kill’ phase of escalation when fighting a role against their interest.
  • If the hostile role is a member of the station’s crew, security must follow space law and make attempts to revive the victim if the situation permits.
  • The crew must make a reasonable attempt to deconvert hostile roles that are known to be deconvertable.

Always aggressors

Certain hostile roles are always considered aggressors and may be considered to be at the lethal force, Level 3, stage even if they are not currently preforming hostile actions. As such, the following roles may be killed and pursued by all crew members.

  • Nukies
  • Anyone wearing a blood red hardsuit or elite suit. Note during nukie rounds crew may take syndicate armor from fallen nukies and caution should be used.
  • Space dragons
  • Space ninjas
  • The Rat King
  • Closet skeletons
  • Clwnes
  • Wizard
  • Zombies
  • Paradox clones of YOURSELF
  • Xenoborgs
  • Holoclown
  • Holoparasite
  • Revenant
1 Like
17

While I overall think these are some good improvements, I feel it is too lenient in certain circumstances.

  • Initiating combat against security as an aggressor while station aligned will be considered self-antagonism absent a valid roleplay reason.

Shitters (our beloathed) get to this point by treading the line of being annoying, pushing a SecOff to perform an arrest or otherwise escalate the behavior. This is then used as justification for the whole round; even something as simple as confiscating marked contraband or your fellow crewmate being arrested is a “roleplay reason” to escalate.

I understand the need to carve out some sort of exception for the examples you listed as a reasoning behind this change, but I feel “a valid roleplay reason” is too vague.

Free Agent

I think OP’s requirement to have a reason is good. Skeletons are not permitted to murderbone anyhow, so making them have a reason to go wild feels more suitable than just “time to reduce the station to ashes”. It also ties into…

Always aggressors

I think this list is too permissive on the behalf of crew. It sucks as ratking/skeleton to spawn in and immediately get beat to death by a tider with a toolbox. Even more so if you get permission from Captain/an ID.

Space Law has a definition for “Space Law doesn’t apply for foreign invaders” and while that definition is a bit lacking (e.g. it should carve out the ability for HoP/Captain to declare someone crew, and how ratkings/skeletons/paradox clones/visitors slot into that) I think it is more suitable than the list given here.

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18

I would carve out a specific note/clarification that escalation is ultimately based on perception: if a Cargo Tech sees a Captain wearing a bloodred (for some reason), or a Botanist sees an undercover SecOff with no identifying features magdump a Tider, it is reasonable for them to engage in combat even though they are escalating against crew/Sec. It does introduce a bit more of a grey area, but the examples above are situations where someone would be following escalation in good faith yet still be breaking the rules as written.

19

I believe that is already addressed here

But I wouldn’t be against making it more clear.

I agree it is a slippery slope, but admins may decide what’s a good reason or a poor reason. If anything, maybe, make it an MRP amendment or “this rule is more strictly enforced on MRP”. Playing as sec, sometimes some light shittery (For example I just made a friend at the bar, and I help him escape the sec officer trying to arrest him for cat ears) makes the round more interesting and making this a black and white automatically self antagging thing seems a little heavy handed.

I think it need to be removed entirely becasue the language “have a reason” is too weak. Skeleton can just say “I wanted more power for myself” and kill the captain or sec officers. The other thing is, by making them have a reason, the only difference between a free agent and crew aligned is a free agent can escalate to Level 3 at any time. Also if The Rat King can’t go murderboning, He’s basically a nonthreat and can’t create problems for the crew unless someone starts it. Keeping this would mean that free agents can’t act (as much) like antagonists anymore.

I agree it does suck to be killed immediately after spawning in, but the list was generated from what I believe is the current admin census on the issue. I already see Cap making ratkings, or skeletons crew and if they are killed on sight by the crew A. I think it should be an IC issue not a rule violation, and B if they were declared to be crew they are likely to be revived anyway. As far as visitors I don’t think there are no problems currently as they are given crew aligned roles (I think) and aren’t foreign invaders anyway. When it comes to paradox clones, I’m not sure about what the meta shield says about this, but my personal belief is that its reasonable for you to assume someone who looks like a clone of you to have ill intentions and to kill them on sight. If the metashield allows you to know that paradox clones exist and that their goal is to kill their counterpart, its irresponsible to make them a crew member while the original is still alive.

1 Like
20

I do agree with that. If they did not harm anyone and just being an ass RP wise. It is fun to interact with people who RP an aggressive personality.

And if helping a “newly made friend” escaping only goes up to openning door for them or just placing soap around the door. It is not a big deal and pretty close to common sense logic. If they chase and hinder secoff all the time during transportation of prisoner and arrest and not just one. That is absolutely different situation and they will be arrested for that.

I think this point just need clarification. Like cannot commit teslallose suicide, atmos sabo, turning entire department into a crater with exception of Sec, etc.
Aka they can antag withing reason. Like for example skelemen decided he want to usurp captain, then he should declare so and act withing gimmick. And if people dont recognize him as captain, he now can kill them for treason reasons.
They cannot however go Hi-Hi-Ho-Ha Teslaloose funny ACK ACK.

I agree. Like Pun-Pun counts as part of the crew. The moment Captain authorize ID, they are part of the crew and their murder should be treated the same IC.

And Ratking can be authorized by captain to be station pet. So pet rules apply

About paradox clones. You cannot be sure who is real, so you either watch them both or arrest the aggressor who tries to kill another one. While keeping both alive.
Unless paradox clone screwed up and given themself away in really stupid way(happens a lot). However if original say “Hey we are twins” and clone pick ups that and says “We are twins”. I will leave them to their own thing(since they clearly got an RP thing there and i am not being meta-ass and take it away from them. Not i will allow anyone to be meta-ass if i am sec).

Example: Warden had a clone.
We arrested them.
Me and other sec-off were not allowing warden to gib them and putting them in perma.
Ended up sneaking common comms to them inside a plushie since hos was a bit metagamey and we didnt have a lawyer.
In the end i was unwelding doors to perma(someone welded them, metagamers -_-)
Giving him EVA
And getting him onto evac(which what you should do with prisoners btw)