First: Thank you very much. Second: I am still wary of this rule. I agree with the intent behind it, I think players in all roles should be reacting instead of pre-empting in most cases, but I am still a little worried about an admin who thinks powergaming is “x” handing out a ban when other admins don’t agree. It might just be paranoia.
Oh, this is very good. Thank you.
couple of additional points/questions.
General situations where a character is preemptively preparing for situations that have yet to happen in ways that logically do not make sense
Does this include sec/engi/command walking around in suits all shift? Engi typically does it because they go into unsafe areas which usually means the first thing most people in engi do is throw on the suits. Should they switch to normal clothes when the suits arent needed or is it basically just expected that engi will be in suits?
Clowning/Tiding should not cause security to resort to lethal force, or permanent sentencing
Unless you are an antagonist, you should not become such a disruption that security has to resort to treating you like one.
This wording immediately tries to paint sec as the assumed good guys in a given situation. I’ve personally been harassed by sec multiple times without cause. I feel like it inherently paints all tiders/clowns as in the bad guy when in reality there is this culture of distrust in tiders when some of us just want a more relaxed shift.
So what if your a syndicate and place a Syndibomb on evac with the objective to steal the QMs digiboard? Could that be a valid distraction?
I made an adjustment based on your feedback. It now reads:
As a nonantagonist, when coming into contact with antagonists (or antagonistic bahaviors), do not aid with the antagonistic behavior. Report them to security whenever possible, and do not actively hunt antagonists unless security is completely unable to on their own (examples include but are not limited to: WarOps, a large percentage of security is dead, etc)
This is to say that, should you find yourself in a situation where you find you as a nonantagonist are engaged or otherwise witnessing the actions of an antagonist, you should be reporting it appropriately for the betterment of the station.
I feel this splits the difference.
As for the second question, regarding contraband…
It’s actually in space law that contraband should be turned into sec. However, the Captain and HoS can make exceptions for minor/major contraband, just not syndicate contraband. Perhaps in the future we can revisit salvaged contraband. I’ll put a pin in it for a later date for sure. (I love playing salvage, so it’s something I’ll keep an eye on for sure)
Interesting fact here, this list was created with the help of several admins specifically so that we could come to a cohesive idea of what would prevent exactly that. Overall, we want players to follow the spirit of the rule, not some arbitrary “by the book” of what it could mean. If you’re actively trying to powergame, we’ll see it. If you’re making a reasonable effort to not powergame, chances are this rule will never even be brought up to you.
There are some relatively obvious situations that can always be “assumed” that dont fall under powergaming. I would definitely look at a roundstart secoff wearing a hardsuit, or a roundstart captain wearing their mask and gunning for heavier armor. “Drip” be damned. Engi, however, could make a reasonable case for things. However if I saw one sitting in the bar tossing back drink after drink in their hardsuit roundstart and they haven’t done a damn thing, I’m going to be a bit curious if they have a valid reason. It all comes down to why.
It’s actually a bit deeper than that. If you cown/tide hard enough in any department that Sec has to use lethal force to remove you, then you’ve disrupted that department enough that you’ve hit antagonistic levels. It’s not clowning/tiding security department that is the issue, it’s doing enough clowning/tiding that security has to get serious with you
Do not hardbomb the shuttle as a “distraction”. The fake is okay.
Well, then I see no further problems. Thank you for the clarification.
Generally I see most of these changes as positive, though with
As a nonantagonist, when coming into contact with antagonist contraband, you are expected to return them to security if at all possible.
I worry this will give security a bit too much certainty that anyone handling any syndicate contraband at all is a definite traitor, with the certainty that they would be selfantagging or not meeting MRP standards otherwise.
May I ask what the issue is with a captain wearing their carapace just like how a hos or secoff wears their coat/armor? Or wearing your mask but keeping it lowered unless you need it?
I mean if I’m playing Salvage though (can really be any other role except Security/Command) and find something useful for my job I don’t want to turn it in. I don’t see a problem with using contraband as long as you aren’t using it to hurt crew/security. If it takes up a large part of Security’s time than yeah it’s a problem but if not then it shouldn’t really matter if Salvage Specialist #8 is using an esword as a non antag or a ditched Blood Red from a dead lone op.
This is exactly how Harmony does it. As long as you aren’t wasting a large portion of Security’s time contraband as a non antag is fine.
yes but my issue is that the wording immediately assumes the tider was being disruptive and sec is in the right. The issue is we have a rule directly naming 2 roles which already get bullied enough just for rolling those roles. We have a lack of rules regarding sec’s behavior and an abundance regarding everyone else’s. Can we get a team of people who have less than 5 hours in sec to take a pass on the rules? because every time I bring up sec, I’m brushed off or told" just report them" which without fail leads to “its not in the rules” or {insert some mental gymnastics about how you were 0.3 inches from sec’s door which puts you in secs jurisdiction which means them battoning you without any reason was actually valid} Sure, it may not happen to admins or people who play jobs every shift, but as some one who plays tider id say about 70% of their matches sec seems to be unfairly protected by the admin team. every time I’ve ahelped them i’m given some run around about how its ok for sec to do it.
I actually invvite the admin team to make anonymous characters and play as tiders attempting to RP with sec for a full week. you will understand exactly what I’m talking about. I’m at the point where I have to actively avoid sec because I want to RP and sec couldn’t collectively RP their way out of a wet paperbag unless you gave them 5 stun batons, 5 kramers, and enough magazines to kill half the bystanders in the area while they make the attempt.
Security already should not be assuming someone is a traitor simply because of contraband. They should be following spacelaw and confiscating the contraband. This is putting more emphasis that non-antagonists should be making efforts to turn in contraband, and security should not penalize people for doing so.
Some people get contraband through entirely legitimate means, such as maints diving, salvaging, looting after a fight, etc. It doesn’t mean they are an antagonist.
Now if someone repeatedly has contraband, and there is no logical reason behind them having the contraband other than them being a traitor, then Security has reasonable suspicion to keep an eye on them for being a potential traitor.
This would fall under the Powergaming rules, though. While not a specific example listed, it would be within reason to assume it’s within the same expectations.
The issue is the necessity of it. Wearing the mask, but having it lowered could be a grey area, likely not a problem. However your loadout you start the round wearing is assumed to be sufficient for the station as the round starts. Until a threat is identified, you should not be increasing your defenses.
I will take back (read: modify) what I said about the carapace. I genuinely have no interest in playing captain so I never bothered checking the loadouts. This was more to mean “Going for stronger armor than your loadout in general at roundstart” so I’ll edit my original post.
Security is bound by space law. Syndicate contraband is not allowed and must be confiscated. Minor/Major contraband can be permitted on a case-by-case basis by HoS/Cap.
This is WizDen, not Harmony. We allow other servers to have their own interpretations of Space Law, Self-Antagonism, etc. However, on our servers, Space Law requires that all syndicate contraband be turned over to Security, and exceptions are not allowed except by Central Command or in case of imminent station destruction.
I’m giving you a reply separate so I can address this specifically.
I have personally (cannot speak for the other admins) issued multiple role bans for security for abuse of the role. I cannot go into specifics, but I assure you - The admins do not turn a blind eye to abuse of power in security.
There are times when the issue is an in-character issue, yes, but when it’s not we step in and we handle it. However, we are not omnipresent. We are a thin team as it is currently. Use the ahelp feature. Contact us on the forums with round information and ask that we look into the situation. We do look into these things.
I personally play security sometimes, and I know exactly the situations you have spoken about. Ideally, with the MRP/Whitelisting rules this will bring it, it will be reduced.
Report the cases. We will handle them
I am simply recommending it because it is a fairly stupid rule when it comes to non antags with items that could drastically help them.
Is there potential to possibly reclassify some syndie contraband as minor? For example their scarves/normal clothes? I often find the red and black syndie scarf in maint and genuinely just like its style. It doesn’t pose any possible threat of danger it just has a cute style (unless it has some hidden interaction i’m not aware of that does make it potentially dangerous?
Both of these effectively have the same answer:
We are open to feedback on all aspects of the game, including Space Law, Contraband Classifications, etc. While that may not be the scope of this change, it’s something entirely valid to be looked into.
I have spent a significant amount of time considering what my characters look good in, or what I find useful in different departments. Hell, as a borg I find it fucking hilarious to get saddled with cat ears, and those are syndicate contraband. 
My genuine suggestion is to look at these issues apart from the changes being proposed, and look at them as the steps after. Space Law, Contraband… Those are interactions within the game that can be looked at as an addition. I have no problem taking a look.
Well, thats the exact thing, anyone not handing in contraband would need to be a traitor, and while its probably safe to assume security acting on it like this would be powergaming, the new version of the rules makes this kind of powergaming a very safe bet.
Currently, if someone has some middling contraband item, like a cybersun pen and security were to find it on them, they could simply claim it came from salvage or a maints dive, and be only marginally suspicious, since even non-antagonists would be able to obtain and hold on to the item for their own reasons, if every non-antagonist is compelled by rules to hand in all contraband they obtain, anyone not doing so is incredibly safe to be considered an antagonist, enabling that form of powergaming, which would not be something easilly detectable or moderatable.
It simply makes it too much of a safe bet for security.
Hello! Never posted before. I do not have enough experience to make qualitative suggestions on gameplay elements but I would like to request a few clarifications:
Like, I could tell a security cadet to “Be always ready to unholster your baton at the earliest twitch. It’s an extension of you. Make sure you place it in your belt, already preactivated so that you can hit the quick release and wield it in a single flowing motion!” “*unholsters instantly and swings the baton” “(rebind your draw from belt to B for easier drawing, make sure it has a gold star” “Then be ready to use your spare hand to do the same for your cuffs. Obvserve” “*unholsters her baton, switches hands and draws handcuffs!” “(just hit b then x then b then x again to do it under a second”.
The current MRP rules looked fine to me and the amendments look sane prima facie but I can’t say anything else due to inexperience.
Thank you for your time, good sers.
GB42.
I’d also like to ask for some clarifications on validhunting.
Ca
I really do hope it is looked into considering that as long as a non antag isn’t actively wasting Securitys time or using it for evil deeds it really isn’t a problem at all. It’s an entirely different story if they are using it for an advantage against hunting antags or breaking other rules.
I’ll summarize here…
This would be entirely acceptable because that is explaining a mechanic of the game itself such as controls, UI, etc in LOOC. You are using LOOC to explain something that has no bearing on the round, IC conversation, etc, that you are trying to convey to the player - the person sitting at the computer - that would otherwise make no sense to the character before you on the screen.
So I personally have a reasonable history of detecting AI generated content, generating my own AI content for the purposes of comparison, etc. Using detectors is not a surefire way to find all AI generated backstories. While I wont go into details on what explicitly we are testing with, I will say that it isn’t going to be as simple as pulling up the same checker, pasting in a paragraph, and going “Yep that’s AI.”
Also, there’s a difference between telling an AI “Give me a backstory for a character” to paste it in, and using an AI to fill in some minor blanks because you have writer’s block. I personally write psychological horror. I’ve asked AI to give me some spitball ideas to get the creativity flowing. I dont copy/paste what it gives me is the difference there.
Did this get cut off, or was that the end of your thought, just general clarifications?
I’m like going back and forth from playing games and staying up to date on this and also talking to friends. I’m all over the place.
I’d like to know when it’s acceptable to validhunt because earlier today on MRP I was hunted down by Salvage members. Security was not busy and were fully staffed and capable of going after me. Salvage saw me breaking in somewhere with C4 and killed me and arrested me.
I completely understand being all over the place. I’m currently doing chores, forgetting to eat my lunch I’ve had to microwave 4 times in the past 2 hours (rip), have 33 tabs open, and I should probably do laundry. Haha.
So this is one where it gets into a bit of a grey area. I’d propose the following:
All of that being said, Salvage specifically is one of the odd ones where they generally could be equipped to try and at least hold off a potential station threat while security is on the way, but they should not be actively seeking out threats to the station.
Just because someone has a weapon or tool that can hold off a threat, doesn’t make them the right team to handle the threat they see
The keyword in all this is validhunting. Regular crew (read: anyone not part of security) should not be attempting to arm themselves and seek out antagonists.