I like door logs, it is a great mechanic. However i believe at sec shouldn’t have access to these logs directly. Instead i believe at logs should be removed and added under the control of AI once AI is added (just 1 week away!) Because it is a really broken mechanic on favor of crew.
The reasons why i think logging should be under the control of AI are the next:
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Door logging is pretty much one of the most broken mechanics, if not the most broken, in favor of crew at exists in the game. if you try to open one wrong door at the wrong time or accidentally touch a door you shouldn’t for whatever reason sec will be able to see that in logs and arrest you. This alone kills a lot of the freedom you have as a antag (syndie bombs and emagging dispo almost fully vanished because you get caught due to logs) and can make the game really stressful if you don’t want to get caught. Since logging was added i legit seen a lot of rounds where nothing happens, hell even sometimes shuttlebombing doesn’t even happen either.
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Door logging counterplay is, being the most kind possible, horrible. The counterplay is pretty much a log wire at when cut it makes the logs stop of updating. It doesn’t remove already existing logs, it requires insuls, a wirecutter (and multitool unless you know the wires already) and it doesn’t clear the evidence if you touched the door before, this combined with the limited supply of insuls means only engi haves it guaranteed to have a chance of counterplaying logs (as if engi wasn’t the best role for antags already) and this counterplay wastes a lot of your already limited time if you are trying to break into anywhere without being seen.
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This mechanic makes it extremely stressful for syndies and thiefs to play the game, they already have to worry about a lot of shit but this makes them have to even worry about where and when they go anywhere and trust me it isn’t good for your mind if you get antag multiple rounds in a row. I know this thanks to my own experience, the stress legit made me ragequit from the game for the first time in months after i got caught and malded hard in ooc.
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Det, the role at haves this tool, was a already powerful and really annoying role for antags before logs were added. It really didn’t need a even more broken mechanic on they arsenal.
(There may be more reasons but i can’t remember them at the time of making this thread)
Now, why give it to ai?
Well, once AI is added i believe it should be the only one with access and full control to things like cameras, comms and/or logs. It gives reasons to crew for no just murderbone ai and it incentivizes crew and antags to become friendly with ai in general (unless AI is they objective). Ai can also use this exclusive information for either help antags or crew which allows gimmicks for the AI player and allows antags to play with they old freedom (as long they keep the AI happy). It still will make the game more hard for antags but i prefer to have logs on the hands of a neutral party who may or not assist you at giving them to crew and having to break my head for steal x from y head who left they stuff in they office or i will end up in perma just because i pressed the wrong button on the wrong door (or i just lag walked into the door, that likely happened to someone already).
sure it may be abit broken, BUT it also allows for some (somewhat) Actual detective gameplay! (again emphasis on somewhat) before now, detective gameplay was 1: officer brings item in 2: scan item 3: name the things listed on it 4: repeat. where with door logs you can kinda trace back a trail.
now detective gameplay is still kinda like what i just stated, but atleast it’s slightly more intresting
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I honestly would rather give det other kind of tools rather at logs. I believe logs are simply way too broken for be on the hands of crew just like that.
Maybe det could have special glasses at allow them to follow the tracks of people instead? If implemented properly it could have basically the same function as logs but being way less op since it doesn’t straight up tell you when a person used a door and they name. Tracks could also be based on boots so they could be used to figure out if someone was using things like galoshes or no slips.
Hold fire, AI is getting added to the game soon? Where have I missed this?
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There are AI rooms already added into all the stations. We don’t know when AI will be added but it will be added at some point (maybe after newmed).
alright it’s getting abit off topic. to finish the ai talk, it probably won’t be for a while as it needs a design doc mainly, along with probably a redo on how cameras work(assumming it sees similarly to ss13)
but back to the detective, it shouldn’t be removed, atleast currently. the detective in my opinion doesn’t have enough content right now, and if we were to remove it, that would remove HALF of their toolset (or well pretty much half).
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I know dets are craving for more content but logs are simply way too op for be in the hands of crew in general. Having other mechanics like track tracking, comms tracker, hidden cameras and stuff like that would be tools at i believe det could use really well and at fit the role a lot more at logs.
i don’t want logs to dissapear from the det, i think it fits the job well
so maybe the logs could be hidden, like instead of stating a name it would be some sort of code
something like {department code} + {job id} + some other thing
then let’s say the department code and job id would be short random strings, so you’d need to go scanning doors to figure out what parts of the string correlate to what department and job
if that makes literally any sense at all.
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I unironically would like this if the codes are hard to figure out (each door haves a fully randomized and extremely long code and you have to find the id code through all that mess) or det could be able to just scan every door and learn the codes from round start.
not exactly what im saying, im ment that each player’s ID would have a unique code determined by unique traits, instead of being the person’s name, it would be that ID’s code. the detective would then need to look around and find which parts of the text mean diffrent things
an example code could be MOSEGI
(just an example, each ‘code piece’ would be random at round start)
MOS would mean atmospheric technician and EGI would mean the engineering department.
(yea yea WYCI i know, i just like thinking about features)
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That seems like a horrible way of obfuscating things though. Surely, if you were going to design a function of logging tools to check who used the door, you wouldn’t obfuscate it behind the door ID. We don’t have a functioning AI as is, so hiding this behind them and silicones seems nuts. Maybe make it so the logs can be modified or deleted? So for instance, a syndie secoff could frame someone else for entering the singulo room and setting lord singuloth upon the station?
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you could have the door log be based off the person’s carried ID and it’s job. If you open a door and your id says you’re John Atmos, then the log says John Atmos opened the door even if the person carrying John’s ID was Bill Syndicate
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this should be what it does right now
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Is that not how it works at the moment? If it doesn’t, then this seems like it should be set up that way. After all, doors use ID as verification - not the face of the person.
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it already works like that, the log saves up the name of the id not the name of the person.
As an avid Door Log Detective, here are my 2 cents:
Skill issue
To be less facetious, Door Logs have plenty of counterplay, they just require some better planning from the antag.
- Agent IDs hard-counters doorlogs. Set your name to another crew member’s and laugh as Detective commissions the Cargo shuttle to arrest a Salvager.
- Stolen IDs hard-counters doorlogs. The spare IDs are especially juicy.
- Breaking in from a public area hard-counters doorlogs. Marathon’s HoP office is virtually impossible to monitor with doorlogs.
- Emags hard-counters doorlogs. It erases the doorlog history and all that is left are your fibers.
Doorlogs are great if you have an antag who forgot about them or didn’t care about them. They’re also really good for stalking someone, as you can trail a person based on their doorlogs. But I’ve also used doorlogs to incorrectly accuse people, and some clever antags bypassed it using the methods above.
Finally, I don’t think it should be removed because it’s so damn fun. You gotta line it up with the time of the crime, investigate and deduce which doors were used, and if there are multiple logs you have multiple suspects. And maybe they used an Agent ID? Oooh, the plot thickens.
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I see, now i think that won’t work because it would make it really easy to find out people (for example there is one janitor and it so happens they id code is on the logs or is the id code of a job where only a few people can play per shift) and considering logs can pretty much end a syndie/thief round for anyone. I believe they should be hard to figure out or not be in the hands of crew (which is why i want AI to have the current logs instead).
What crew could have instead is another type of logging which includes a minigame at i am going to (try) describe now (idk the name of this puzzle, i am sorry in advance if it sounds like nosense):
Each individual log will have a fully randomized log code (for avoid metagaming by memorizing the code of important doors and each log code should be REALLY long) and each id will also have a fully randomized code which will have between 3 to 10 digits which will be placed inside the random log code in a random location.
The objective of det would be find the id code inside the log code for figure out which id used the door. One log will not be enough and det would need to scan 2 to 3 doors if not more for find the correct code (and for the sake of keeping the sanity of the det player logs will still mention the time when the door was used so det can at least track the path the id used for do the crime).
Lest put a example, inside the next 3 random codes there will be a 3 digit code, if you manage to find that 3 digit code then you sucefully found a id code (and for make it easier i am going to just use numbers).
619634
19623178
0911964
(the 3 digit code is 196)
i haven’t played any security and had no idea how the current system worked, that’s my bad.
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All this is good but you wont always have a emag or extra id in hand (and now at i think about it logs make the syndie bundle for thiefs even more broken at what it already was).
And i don’t want logs fully removed, is just at on they current state logs are simply way too op for be on the hands of crew, they either need changes or need to be only on the hands of a neutral party like AI.
Do you think it would be beneficial if positively identifying the suspect in a log required scanning more than one door’s logs/fingerprints from items or crime scenes? I feel like that could add to the investigative gameplay, having to narrow down your suspects from multiple scenes/scans/logs, and it allows antags to exploit reasonable doubt and not be caught from a single print or door access log. As I said though I am not experienced in the security/detective gameplay so I’m not sure what ideas would or would not benefit the investigation and evasion aspects of gameplay.
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